Living, Undead vs Other

[Fetid Strumpet]

And this feeds into the point as well. I don't want to rehash a book 1 vs book 2 argument or discussion, but the fact remains that book 2's neverborn minions are just incredible value for what you get. I see the twins pretty much in every single neverborn list I play against. I also run into the stitched together in most games as well. I run into Collodi by himself or often paired with Zoraida, with their attendant Wicked Dolls.

Really, unless I'm playing against Lilith I don't really ever run into anything other than nightmares and constructs from the Neverborn, and it's mostly nightmares. Now I'm not disparaging anything from book 1 or that Neverborn never take anything from book 1, but the only common minions "I" usually see from book one besides the masters is the primordial magic for all crews, Living Nephilim for Lilith Crews, and very rarely sometimes Sorrows for Pandora.

So perhaps one of the exacerbating issues that makes it feel like it does is just the sheer prevalence across the board of all Neverborn Masters of a few specific models which all happen to be nightmares.

Now certainly if more mode

[FearLord]

fair enough, it was just a general example to highlight the underlying point, which your example reinforces.

Only partially... you main point seemed to be "Why take Lilith when I can take the Dreamer?" which was positively denied by Dolymite's post...

The point you don't seem to be grasping though is that when a Master other than Dreamer takes a Nightmare, there is no specific advantage to taking it over another model besides immunity to terrifying and a small selection of abilities that specifically target living models... For 99% of the time when attacking the model, being a Nightmare does not matter and there are not so many attacks that are weaker against Nightmares to justify a need for lots of abilities that specifically do more to Nightmares than to other models (although there are a few of these).

Compare to say the Spirit characteristic, which also has great synergy with 1 master, but at the same time by virtue of being a spirit gets additional protections - that is why there is a need for Magical weapons, which have the specific effect of applying normal damage to spirits (note - not additional damage, normal damage).

Ergo, purely based on characteristics, Spirit is more powerful than Nightmare, but there are more effects that specifically effect spirits than Nightmares so there is some measure of balance at work.

The undead characteristic gives slightly more protection than the Nightmare characteristic as well (immunity to moral duels) but is balanced out by being effected by more specific effects...

[Dolomyte]

Only partially... you main point seemed to be "Why take Lilith when I can take the Dreamer?" which was positively denied by Dolymite's post...

The point you don't seem to be grasping though is that when a Master other than Dreamer takes a Nightmare, there is no specific advantage to taking it over another model besides immunity to terrifying and a small selection of abilities that specifically target living models... For 99% of the time when attacking the model, being a Nightmare does not matter and there are not so many attacks that are weaker against Nightmares to justify a need for lots of abilities that specifically do more to Nightmares than to other models (although there are a few of these).

Compare to say the Spirit characteristic, which also has great synergy with 1 master, but at the same time by virtue of being a spirit gets additional protections - that is why there is a need for Magical weapons, which have the specific effect of applying normal damage to spirits (note - not additional damage, normal damage).

Ergo, purely based on characteristics, Spirit is more powerful than Nightmare, but there are more effects that specifically effect spirits than Nightmares so there is some measure of balance at work.

The undead characteristic gives slightly more protection than the Nightmare characteristic as well (immunity to moral duels) but is balanced out by being effected by more specific effects...

Actually. I take mostly dolls, nightmares, constructs, etc. because they are better then living models. I feel living models are a liability on the table, so I avoid them as much as humanly possible. Nightmares deny my opponents access to counters and some abilities, which is an advantage. Undead models don't deny my opponent counters, though they do deny them counters and morale duels (though to be fair, I dont think I can take anything undead in neverborn / arcanists)

Also - this whole spirit being an advantage thing? not so much. You could easily end up facing rasputina, or sonnia, or colette, or one of the other masters who can toss out a ton of magic damage, where its not halved, and your low wound count = easy deaths. See, there is a drawback to spirit.

There is no drawback to nightmare.

[011121]

Only partially... you main point seemed to be "Why take Lilith when I can take the Dreamer?" which was positively denied by Dolymite's post...

No, it wasn't really about the master as the minions, although you can point out that the same argument applies to the master (which is true) but masters already have a bunch of invulnerabilities built in which overshadows teh importance of type by and large.

The point you don't seem to be grasping though is that when a Master other than Dreamer takes a Nightmare, there is no specific advantage to taking it over another model besides immunity to terrifying and a small selection of abilities that specifically target living models... For 99% of the time when attacking the model, being a Nightmare does not matter and there are not so many attacks that are weaker against Nightmares to justify a need for lots of abilities that specifically do more to Nightmares than to other models (although there are a few of these).

I don't grasp it because I disagree with it. Far from it being the same 99% of the time I'd put it more like 30% of the time. There are simply dozens of hostile abilities that target living only. There are dozens that target living and undead or undead only. There are maybe 2 dozen that target constructs and there are 0 that target nightmares/soulless.

Compare to say the Spirit characteristic, which also has great synergy with 1 master, but at the same time by virtue of being a spirit gets additional protections - that is why there is a need for Magical weapons, which have the specific effect of applying normal damage to spirits (note - not additional damage, normal damage).

At the same time, as dolomyte mentions, spirits generally have very few wounds for their cost, which means that a magic weapon, while technically only doing normal damage, is doing it to a weaker target. If you want an anti-spirit model you have a lot of choices, anyone with damaging spells or a magic weapon is their bane.

Who is the bane of nightmares?

[Q'iq'el]

Actually I tend to take nightmares with lilith and pandora (the twins), and a ton of them with zoraida (stitched, and other dolls)

So I rarely have living stuff on the table for neverborn.

Other Dolls than Stitched are not Nightmares. They are constructs. There are plenty of anti-constructs abilities out there, which was the point.

When I said there are 2-3 common non-spirit Nightmares, I've meant Siblings and Stitched. I've never seen others used outside The Dreamer crew.

Not sure why, but I was writing from memory and I thought for a moment Alps and Copellius are Spirits too. My mistake.

[Dolomyte]

Other Dolls than Stitched are not Nightmares. They are constructs. There are plenty of anti-constructs abilities out there, which was the point.

When I said there are 2-3 common non-spirit Nightmares, I've meant Siblings and Stitched. I've never seen others used outside The Dreamer crew.

Not sure why, but I was writing from memory and I thought for a moment Alps and Copellius are Spirits too. My mistake.

Nightmare wise, you have the totem, which cant be used with others.

the twins which you agree see a ton of play

stitched which you agree see a ton of play

Alps which I will admit are mostly dreamer.

But your going to tell me coppellius and madness don't see a lot of play? Madness is in a ton of pandora lists, and Coppy makes his way on to a fair share of tables. he fracking auto paralyzes. Hoffman players work him into their lists sometimes he's so clutch

So of the 6 nightmares everyone can take, you admit 3 are everywhere, and I claim 2 more are actually seeing a good deal of table time.

yeah, they are so rarely used.

And I know dolls are not nightmares, my point is stuff that is not living is better then stuff thats living. Or has less drawback.

[Q'iq'el]

I disagree it is the nightmare type that is being targetted so the nightmare type is integral to it working. hence it's an advantage of the type, just as an advantage of undead is it's ability to be summoned into play by some masters. You can't just ignore that advantage.

The reason I think your premise is false is this:

1. The Dreamer is designed to teleport his crew around. The Designers themselves said that when it was released.

2. Whatever minions the Dreamer can take, it would be able to teleport it, because that was the intention.

3. For balance reasons (probably) he was limited to Nightmaers only.

In other words, Nightmare, as characteristic, was given by the designers to models they wanted The Dreamer to be able to bury and unbury at will and thus teleport around the table. The reason why there is no counter to it is that the characteristic wasn't designed to circumvent the abilities other crews have.

Same applies to Soulless.

Teddy, which is the only non-nightmare The Dreamer was intended to take, is being turned into Nightmare by The Dreamer (it isn't one normally). The fact that the exception was created for that one model clearly shows how the Nightmare characteristic is being used by the designers here (as an exclusive limit against non-nightmare models).

It reinforces the argument, that Nightmare is a limiting characteristic for the Dreamer, not otherwise.

You've conveniently cut out my example, so I'll reiterate it:

Do you seriously consider Undead to be the characteristic that allows these models to be summoned?

Do you really think the model being a Showgirl means it can teleport all over the table?

Because that is argument about Nightmares you are trying to push.

And I'll reiterate my chief argument, before I leave the thread to its own fate - reason you can find anti-Undead abilities in chiefly living crews is that these crews give Graverobbers additional benefits (extra Corpse Counters) and as such there's need to re-balance the matchups. Originally anti-Undead abilities were mostly about being able to destroy Corpse Counters - clearly showing, this is the issue the Designers were focused on when creating them.

[Q'iq'el]

But your going to tell me coppellius and madness don't see a lot of play? Madness is in a ton of pandora lists, and Coppy makes his way on to a fair share of tables. he fracking auto paralyzes. Hoffman players work him into their lists sometimes he's so clutch

Madness is a spirit. I've been talking about Nightmares which aren't also a spirits and benefit crews others than The Dreamer. Even more, I've been speaking about benefits non-Dreamer masters get from Nightmares and what I said was that the benefits they get are chiefly from these models being Spirits, not from them being Nightmares.

So no, at no point I said Nightmares aren't being used outside the Dreamer's crew. What I said was that outside the Dreamer's crew it is the Spirit part of the deal which matters more. I'd go even further and say that Lelu & Lilitu are Nightmares only so that The Dreamer can take them - for Pandora it is the Woe part that matters, for Lilith it is their Nephilim affiliation. Zoraida doesn't care. Thanks for not twisting my argument.

I must say I've never seen Madness on the table. Probably because nobody I know plays Pandora.

Copellius is mostly The Dreamer minion from my experience. Either way, he's the non-spirit I forgot about, so I admit my mistake. I don't think it changes anything - when the crews other than The Dreamer grab him, they don't do it because of his "Nightmare" characteristic. It isn't even much of a bonus (esp. for Hoffman who fields a non-living crew anyway).

Edited October 3, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[edonil]

I don't grasp it because I disagree with it. Far from it being the same 99% of the time I'd put it more like 30% of the time. There are simply dozens of hostile abilities that target living only. There are dozens that target living and undead or undead only. There are maybe 2 dozen that target constructs and there are 0 that target nightmares/soulless.

------

At the same time, as dolomyte mentions, spirits generally have very few wounds for their cost, which means that a magic weapon, while technically only doing normal damage, is doing it to a weaker target. If you want an anti-spirit model you have a lot of choices, anyone with damaging spells or a magic weapon is their bane.

Who is the bane of nightmares?

Bingo. This is where I'm at with things. Nightmares get little offensive capability related to their type, but they get all the immunities of Undead and Construct, with none of the weaknesses in abilities that mess with them. Even beyond that, though, is the fact that a lot of abilities are specifically tied to targeting living...which means those abilities are wasted in the inherent SS cost of the models in a heavy construct/nightmare/undead meta.

[Q'iq'el]

Nightmares get little offensive capability related to their type, but they get all the immunities of Undead and Construct, with none of the weaknesses in abilities that mess with them.

This is not true at all.

1. Undead & Constructs are immune to Terryfying and to all Morale Duels.

2. Nightmares (and Soulless) are immune *ONLY* to Terryfying.

Undead drop Corpse Counters and Create Blood Counters, because otherwise entire faction would not drop those (and arguably Undead benefit the most from their own models dropping Corpse Counters). Constructs do not drop these, because they are usually mixed with non-master living models and don't cause that much of a problem (exception being Ramos, where even the master is a construct). They are the only source of the Scrap Counters too (again, benefiting mostly their own Scavenger masters).

Undead do not have any particular weaknesses when facing other crews, just like Nightmares. What Undead get is a benefit of being able to summon even more Undead from the living opponents they kill.

To give living opponents a chance to resist that, they have abilities targeting undead, chiefly the ability to destroy Counters.

As a Resurrectionist player I can say only this: This is a misrepresentation of a mechanic balancing living crews against us as a weakness. It is not a weakness. It gives living crews similar chance against us as non-living crews get.

The reason why, I think, crews do not get such a re-balancing abilities against Nightmares is that Nightmares don't get any particular benefit against living or other models.

There are no anti-Woe, no anti-Showgirl, no anti-Nephilim, no anti-Vermin abilities to speak of. This is the same. Seems very clear to me that not-dropping Corpse or Blood Counters is just like not-dropping Scrap Counters. The state Undead are balanced against. If you drop Corpse Counters, then you need extra help against Undead and you get it in form of these abilities.

[Dolomyte]

There are no anti-Woe, no anti-Showgirl, no anti-Nephilim, no anti-Vermin abilities to speak of. This is the same. Seems very clear to me that not-dropping Corpse or Blood Counters is just like not-dropping Scrap Counters. The state Undead are balanced against. If you drop Corpse Counters, then you need extra help against Undead and you get it in form of these abilities.

Showgirl, Woe, Nephilim. Good examples. All models with a unique tag allowing other special interactions (IE teleporting around the board), and yet all still living, and all the weaknesses of being living.

why can't nightmares have been living, but with the exception of being immune to terrifying? why make them deny counters as well. Are you say they are costed with their counter denial in mind?

If showgirl was called nightmare, but did the exact same thing it currently does, no one would give a damn.

[Dolomyte]

Showgirl, Woe, Nephilim. Good examples. All models with a unique tag allowing other special interactions (IE teleporting around the board), and yet all still living, and all the weaknesses of being living.

why can't nightmares have been living, but with the exception of being immune to terrifying? why make them deny counters as well. Are you say they are costed with their counter denial in mind?

If showgirl was called nightmare, but did the exact same thing it currently does, no one would give a damn.

Nightmares do have a benefit over living models. they are immune to terrifying. living models are not. They also dont drop counters. living models do.

[011121]

The reason why there is no counter to it is that the characteristic wasn't designed to circumvent the abilities other crews have.

Irregardless of the design intent it is indisputable that nightmare does in fact circumvent the abilities of many other crews. Reality trumps intent.

It reinforces the argument, that Nightmare is a limiting characteristic for the Dreamer, not otherwise.

I really don't see how that makes any sense. If the Dreamer uses a Mature Niphilim, yes he cannot teleport it but he gets exactly as much use out of it as any other master (excepting the very minor synergy Lilith has with it). That it doesn't play the way he is "supposed" to play is irrelevant. It's just as good as ever.

You've conveniently cut out my example, so I'll reiterate it:

Do you seriously consider Undead to be the characteristic that allows these models to be summoned?

I cut it out because I answered it in the affirmative- of course undead is the characteristic that allows them to be summoned. You can summon undead, you can't summon non-undead. That's pretty stark. Yes of course there is also the ability that does the summoning but when you have a subset of models that can be summoned and a subset that cannot then obviously the former enjoys an advantage.

And I'll reiterate my chief argument, before I leave the thread to its own fate - reason you can find anti-Undead abilities in chiefly living crews is that these crews give Graverobbers additional benefits (extra Corpse Counters) and as such there's need to re-balance the matchups. Originally anti-Undead abilities were mostly about being able to destroy Corpse Counters - clearly showing, this is the issue the Designers were focused on when creating them.

So where is the balance for the common terrifying ability of the nightmares that directly (and hugely) impacts living forces? Where is the balance for their ignoring half the abilities of living and undead models and rendering most of the rest of undead abilities weaker by not dropping counters? Nightmare is easily a much bigger advantage than graverobber and yet no balancing ability has been added.

The same would be true of soulless except a good number of them have either undead or construct to give them some vulnerabilities. I want you to stop and consider that- adding undead (or construct) to a soulless (or nightmare) significantly weakens them. That tells you just how powerful Soulless is.

Edited October 3, 2011 by 011121

[Dolomyte]

Only Coppelius is terrifying. to be fair. The dreamer can make them terrifying, but they are not by default.

[Q'iq'el]

Showgirl, Woe, Nephilim. Good examples. All models with a unique tag allowing other special interactions (IE teleporting around the board), and yet all still living, and all the weaknesses of being living.

Among Nephilim, Lelu and Lilitu are non-living. Among Showgirls all the most powerful/useful models (Coryphée, the Duet, Mannequin) are Constructs. You'll find quite a few Woes which are also Soulless, Spirit or Nightmare.

[Ratty]

I cut it out because I answered it in the affirmative- of course undead is the characteristic that allows them to be summoned. You can summon undead, you can't summon non-undead. That's pretty stark. Yes of course there is also the ability that does the summoning but when you have a subset of models that can be summoned and a subset that cannot then obviously the former enjoys an advantage.

SO what your saying is that Witchling Stalkers, Steampunk Arachnids, Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, Voodoo Dolls, Onryo, Gaki, Gremlins and Piglets are all unliving now?

Being Unliving doesn't mean you can be summoned. Hanged can't, Jack Daw can't and they are both unliving. One model Nicodem has an ability that says he can summon, non-unique, non spirit unliving. It's not the fact they are unliving that makes them summonable. It's an ability of a Master so summon a set of his factions models.

[Dolomyte]

Among Nephilim' date=' Lelu and Lilitu are non-living. Among Showgirls all the most powerful/useful models (Coryphée, the Duet, Mannequin) are Constructs. You'll find quite a few Woes which are also Soulless, Spirit or Nightmare.[/quote']

Your exact words

Why is nightmare different then those. What reason is there for that?

You know, there would be a spirit nightmare, 2 nephilim nightmares, and a doll nightmare.

Just like there is a construct showgirl =p

Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Dolomyte]

SO what your saying is that Witchling Stalkers, Steampunk Arachnids, Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, Voodoo Dolls, Onryo, Gaki, Gremlins and Piglets are all unliving now?

Being Unliving doesn't mean you can be summoned. Hanged can't, Jack Daw can't and they are both unliving. One model Nicodem has an ability that says he can summon, non-unique, non spirit unliving. It's not the fact they are unliving that makes them summonable. It's an ability of a Master so summon a set of his factions models.

But if there were not unliving he could not summon them. Im guessing certain models were made living so that he could not summon them.

[Q'iq'el]

So where is the balance for the common terrifying ability of the nightmares that directly (and hugely) impacts living forces?

Nightmares in great majority are not Terrifying. You'll find plenty of Terrifying among Undead though.

As I said, you shouldn't count abilities brought by the master to the crew as a treat this particular characteristic gives.

I'd really like to see what "crucial" abilities of other crews Nightmares circumvent. Especially ones that other non-living do not circumvent.

Either way, I think the designers consider it completely fine if one crew in entire faction blocks some opponents completely. The very first crew of this kind, entirely blocking Rezzers from gaining counters and Nephilim from getting Blood Counters, was Ramos/Arachnid Swarm build and neither Rezzers nor Nephilim received any anti-construct abilities to counter that.

It's the crews that drop particularly large number of these counters, but cannot benefit from them, which receive anti-undead or anti-spirit benefits. With constructs situation is a bit different - after all fewer masters can summon them and Scrap Counters are somewhat more rare too.

And while we are at this, if dropping corpse counters is a weakness of the living, is not dropping scrap counters their strength?

I'd also like to see how adding "Undead" to Spirit or other characteristic makes the model weaker, because I just don't see it.

And when we speak about all these horrific anti-living abilities, is there really anything outside Terrifying that targets living? Because as far as Morale Duels in general go, Nightmares, Soulless and many other non-living are not immune against them. It's Undead/Spirit/Construct's strength.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Dolomyte]

Nightmares in great majority are not Terrifying. You'll find plenty of Terrifying among Undead though.

As I said, you shouldn't count abilities brought by the master to the crew as a treat this particular characteristic gives.

I'd really like to see what "crucial" abilities of other crews Nightmares circumvent. Especially ones that other non-living do not circumvent.

Either way, I think the designers consider it completely fine if one crew in entire faction blocks some opponents completely. The very first crew of this kind, entirely blocking Rezzers from gaining counters and Nephilim from getting Blood Counters, was Ramos/Arachnid Swarm build and neither Rezzers nor Nephilim received any anti-construct abilities to counter that.

It's the crews that drop particularly large number of these counters, but cannot benefit from them, which receive anti-undead or anti-spirit benefits. With constructs situation is a bit different - after all fewer masters can summon them and Scrap Counters are somewhat more rare too.

And while we are at this, if dropping corpse counters is weakness of the living, is not dropping scrap counters their strength?

I'd also like to see how adding "Undead" to Spirit or other characteristic makes the model weaker, because I just don't see it.

And when we speak about all these horrific anti-living abilities, is there really anything outside Terrifying that targets living? Because as far as Morale Duels in general go, Nightmares, Soulless and many other non-living are not immune against them. It's Undead/Spirit/Construct's strength.

There are a ton of living specific abilities, I'm not going to list them because I frankly don't care that much. I think someone might have though.

Nightmares circumvent any army that uses corpse counters. Not just rezzers. thats the crucial thing they circumvent. not sure why that hasent gotten through your head yet.

the problem is they do that without the drawback that constructs, spirits, and etc face

edit- soulless too, in the nightmare gripe catagory. Soulless frankly is more annoying because its stupid. Ginger's don't have souls but when someone kills one of them their body stays around.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Dolomyte

[011121]

Undead do not have any particular weaknesses when facing other crews, just like Nightmares.

Really? Cause I'm looking at Lady Justice and it sure seems like she's a lot more powerful against undead than any other type of model, including Nightmares. She can cause all undead with 12" to take 3 wounds, she can sacrifice all corpse counters a couple different ways (which may auto kill mindless Zombies but I'd have to check on that), she resists undead Wp duels much better.

Similarly The Death Marshals, Executioner, and Judge are all designed specifically to be the bane of undead crews. There's no such bane for Nightmares and Soulless. Perdita is supposed to be for all Neverborn but her abilities definitely gear her towards the niphilim (destroying counters again which also works perfectly well on undead) in that group.

[Ratty]

But if there were not unliving he could not summon them. Im guessing certain models were made living so that he could not summon them.

Nicodem is designed as a summoner Master. He therefore has some models he can summon. On it's card it could have been written as, He can summon Belles and Punk Zombies and Giant Unliving Fish (If we add them in a later book) and Necropunks and Crooked Men.... etc etc. The wording he has is much less confusing and works down the line.

In the same way the Dreamer is designed to bury and unbury models. He has a list of models that work with him. The Nightmare ability doesn't grant the ability to move around fast. The Dreamer grants the models he was designed to work with the ability to bury and unbury. They could have just as easily wrote the dreamer's abilities work with... Long List of Models, but they keyed it off a keyword.

Now it's perfectly fine to think the Dreamer has a tiny bit too much synergy with his crew. IE his burying antics are a bit over the top.

It's fine to think that some Nightmares are a tiny bit better than they should be for there SS cost (remember the fact that they are immune to terrifying should be included into their cost, in the same way that Lifer is included in the Convict Gunslingers cost).

I'm not going to argue for or against this at all. There has been enough of that.

However if you look at Nightmare as a trait there is nothing overly powerful about it, it's the same as Lifer. There is nothing that makes it inherently better or worse against most crews. OK Seamus can't terrify them, but neither can they terrify any of Seamus' crew.. it kind of balance out.

The question is really are the attacks on Nightmare because

a) Nightmare as an ability is over the top.

They believe the Dreamer is overpowered and the Dreamer takes Nightmares.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Ratty

[Dolomyte]

Nicodem is designed as a summoner Master. He therefore has some models he can summon. On it's card it could have been written as, He can summon Belles and Punk Zombies and Giant Unliving Fish (If we add them in a later book) and Necropunks and Crooked Men.... etc etc. The wording he has is much less confusing and works down the line.

In the same way the Dreamer is designed to bury and unbury models. He has a list of models that work with him. The Nightmare ability doesn't grant the ability to move around fast. The Dreamer grants the models he was designed to work with the ability to bury and unbury. They could have just as easily wrote the dreamer's abilities work with... Long List of Models, but they keyed it off a keyword.

Now it's perfectly fine to think the Dreamer has a tiny bit too much synergy with his crew. IE his burying antics are a bit over the top.

It's fine to think that some Nightmares are a tiny bit better than they should be for there SS cost (remember the fact that they are immune to terrifying should be included into their cost, in the same way that Lifer is included in the Convict Gunslingers cost).

I'm not going to argue for or against this at all. There has been enough of that.

However if you look at Nightmare as a trait there is nothing overly powerful about it, it's the same as Lifer. There is nothing that makes it inherently better or worse against most crews. OK Seamus can't terrify them, but neither can they terrify any of Seamus' crew.. it kind of balance out.

Lets say I agree with that, and your explanation is that nightmares turn into, say ectoplasm when killed. thats why they don't drop counters. I'll buy that, annoying, but I'll buy that.

why don't soulless drop corpse counters? If its not living without a soul, then its kind of undead. Or do punk zombies have souls? Even if punk zombies did have souls, why don't their bodies disappear like a soulless's body dissappears?

[011121]

Only Coppelius is terrifying. to be fair. The dreamer can make them terrifying, but they are not by default.

You and Qi are right, although you are forgetting LCB who has one of the, if not the, biggest terrify rating int he game. Still I was thinking incorrectly more of the other had it (in particular Lelu, Lilitu, and I thought I remembered the stitched being able to turn it on but I'm probably remembering the dreamer doing it).

[011121]

SO what your saying is that Witchling Stalkers, Steampunk Arachnids, Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, Voodoo Dolls, Onryo, Gaki, Gremlins and Piglets are all unliving now?

Being Unliving doesn't mean you can be summoned. Hanged can't, Jack Daw can't and they are both unliving. One model Nicodem has an ability that says he can summon, non-unique, non spirit unliving. It's not the fact they are unliving that makes them summonable. It's an ability of a Master so summon a set of his factions models.

I think you missed the context of my statement. Qi used an example of the various summon an undead powers to say that was purely an issue of the power and said nothing about the undead type. I'm arguing that it most definitely says something about the undead type- it gives it a big advantage that other types do not get. Of course there are other powers that summon dolls, constructs, etc. I was only answering this one narrow claim.