Flaming Bullets Vs Spirits.

[Mentat_Canis]

So its a spell that adds 2 damage to your gun. My question here is if you shoot a spirit what damage do you do.

Option one - Its a spell on your gun so your gun is now a magical source and does full damage.

Option two - Its is just increasing your damage so its a shot from a non-magical source they take half damage.

Option three - They take half of the original damage and then another 2 points from the +2 that is magical.

I am assuming someone like Nix with Magical resistant 2 will get no armor from this.

[karn987]

So its a spell that adds 2 damage to your gun. My question here is if you shoot a spirit what damage do you do.

Option one - Its a spell on your gun so your gun is now a magical source and does full damage.

Option two - Its is just increasing your damage so its a shot from a non-magical source they take half damage.

Option three - They take half of the original damage and then another 2 points from the +2 that is magical.

I am assuming someone like Nix with Magical resistant 2 will get no armor from this.

Unless the spell specifically makes the weapons now Maigcal, I don't believe the +2Dmg counts as magic damage as the spell is not actually dealing any damage but instead is increasing the damage of the Strikes.

So I'm rather sure its Option 2 and yes, Magic Resist would do nothing against it.

Edited September 21, 2011 by karn987

[sephiroa]

So its a spell that adds 2 damage to your gun. My question here is if you shoot a spirit what damage do you do.

Option one - Its a spell on your gun so your gun is now a magical source and does full damage.

Option two - Its is just increasing your damage so its a shot from a non-magical source they take half damage.

Option three - They take half of the original damage and then another 2 points from the +2 that is magical.

I am assuming someone like Nix with Magical resistant 2 will get no armor from this.

since you assume that nix will get no armor, why would a spirit takes full damage?

its a spell, increasing the damage, but that's all it does, no magical weapons

[Mr_Smigs]

isn't there a rule in the book about order of operations when modifying numbers (like damage)?

Multiply/Divide then Add/Subtract...

so the +2 would apply in that second part...

(RM p.7)

[CubertFarnsworth]

yeah but wouldn't you be Multiply/Divide then Add/Subtract first to the weapon...because that is what the spell does, it adds Dg potential to the weapon

Then you would Multiply/Divide then Add/Subtract to the target.....and since there is nothing to Multiply/Divide or Add/Subtract you would take half Wds as a spirit.

This is just my opinion.......

[Headcase2]

As Karn said already, it's option 2. There's no reason the damage would become magical. Similar to spells generating strikes (like the judge's Blades and Bullets ), those aren't magical either although a spell technically generates the strike.

[Mr_Smigs]

sadly, the rules manual doesn't agree...

Spirit modifies the damage,

Flaming bullets modifies the damage.

the book says nothing about applying modifiers twice.

it just says

Math order

Modifiers should be applied in the following order:

* First, Multiply/Divide *Next, Add/Subtract

no "modify the damage, then modify it again"

now, if you want to talk intent of the rules,

this would cover situation of "is flaming bullets magic" because by the order of operations, it's bonus is not halved. so the spell doesn't have to say it's magical as it will not be affected by spirit anyways...

but then that opens the question of other damaging spells... if the effect of Flaming Bullets is not a "magic effect",

then that would imply that no spell is a "magic effect" unless it specifically states it...

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Option two - Its is just increasing your damage so its a shot from a non-magical source they take half damage.

This is the correct option.

[Stern]

@Smigs... I used to play like that until it was pointed out that a spirit halves the TOTAL damage so you multiply/divide then add then subtract, then the spirit halves the damage and then deducts any armour...

so if your shooting a snowstorm you flip a red for damage, get a critical strike and do say 4+3+1 (total 8 damage) you will do 1 wound (8/2 - 3)

[ProdigalPunk]

I think the difference is it adds damage to your gun, not to the flip itself. Critical Hit is 1 damage to the damage flip per ram, where as flaming bullets adds +2 to your stat line.

[Mentat_Canis]

Thank you to the Big Angry Bear. Its always nice to know what is correct.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thank you to the Big Angry Bear. Its always nice to know what is correct.

You're welcome.

And I'm not angry, I'm just sewn that way.

[Stern]

And I'm not angry, I'm just sewn that way.

That's what they all say we will make a care bear out of you yet

[Buhallin]

I think the difference is it adds damage to your gun, not to the flip itself. Critical Hit is 1 damage to the damage flip per ram, where as flaming bullets adds +2 to your stat line.

No difference here. When something applies a damage increase, it's applied before you apply the reduction for Spirit.

Order of operations applies when you have simultaneous modifiers working against the same number. Spirit and Armor both reduce damage at the same time, so Order applies.

But you calculate the full offensive damage before considering anything defensive, so if you're dealing with Flaming Bullets/Critical Strike, they're added before you get to any reduction, Spirit, Armor, etc.

[Hatchethead]

I seem to recall there being mention of damage/wound "phases". Something like this (very rough and without reference material in front of me, apologies in advance if I screw it up):

1. Determine total Damage: Multiply/Divide, Add/Subtract

• Talents/Spells + Damage flip + Red Joker for instance
  

2. Apply total Damage: Multiply/Divide, Add/Subtract

• Previous total / Spirit - Armor or whatever
  

3. Apply total Wounds: Multiply/Divide, Add/Subtract?

• Previous total +, -, x or / anything that modifies incoming Wds? Is there a "Determine total Wounds" step, or is that part of #2?
  

Pretty sure that's not right, but whatever. You get the idea ... it's not mentioned in the RM, though it's implied several times (apparently). Maybe a Marshal can lay it out properly.