Warden - Relentless

[Mr_Smigs]

(+1) Relentless: Discard one Control Card. This model immediately Walks

is this optional?

[Sliver Chocobo]

Yep, same with peacekeeper.

It's great ability, but not as good as nimble

[Mr_Smigs]

pardon me for been oblivious here,

but then WHY is

Passion for his work a "MAY" but this ability does not have "May" in it?

doesn't that imply this is NOT optional?

[Mr_Smigs]

doing it?

doing what? expecting the rules to be clear and consistent?

right now, action modifiers don't mention anything about being OPTIONAL.

If i can ignore this by chosing to NOT use the action modifier,

that means I can choose to NOT use Slow.

neither use the "may" wording.

[Mr_Smigs]

That, but in an obnoxious, feigned ignorance way.

You're right, the wording is different than McMourning's, and a strict control on phrasing would be nice, but you're reading into a situation. There's nothing in the entire sentence that requires you to take the action. Nothing that makes it mandatory.

how about Page 32 of the rules manual that says:

A model may not have any AP remaining at the end of its activation.

this abilities give AP with a cost. But do not mention the cost as OPTIONAL.

Implying even an ALL or PASS action would still envoke their cost.

basically. while there is nothing specifically saying they are mandatory. it is implied by the core rules.

and there is nothing saying it is optional, compared to other rules that are optional.

for that matter, page 33 further implies that the rules are not optional. that the ability grants the AP at activation.

[FearLord]

pardon me for been oblivious here,

but then WHY is

Passion for his work a "MAY" but this ability does not have "May" in it?

doesn't that imply this is NOT optional?

Passion for his work DOESN'T have 'may' in it... check out the v2 card and Avatar McMournings rules in Twisting fates...

[Mr_Smigs]

Passion for his work DOESN'T have 'may' in it... check out the v2 card and Avatar McMournings rules in Twisting fates...

Odd, Rafkin's Passion for his Work DOES have MAY in it.

and there's the question,

do you have to buy relentless

the wording implies you do.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Or you refused to pay the cost of it and don't Wk

[FearLord]

Odd, Rafkin's Passion for his Work DOES have MAY in it.

and there's the question,

do you have to buy relentless

the wording implies you do.

The implication of 2 models in the same book having the same rule with slightly different wording must surely be that "may" is redundant wording?

[Mike3838]

Melee expert, casting expert, nimble. Are you claiming all these +1 actions must be taken too?

I'm pretty sure I remember a rule somewhere that says these +1 AP actions are all optional.

Mike

[FearLord]

how about Page 32 of the rules manual that says:

for that matter, page 33 further implies that the rules are not optional. that the ability grants the AP at activation.

Page 33 actually says that a model doesn't have to pass its specific AP and that they are lost at the end of its activation. It also states that they "can" be spent "in any order" with General AP...

[Sliver Chocobo]

Page 33 actually says that a model doesn't have to pass its specific AP and that they are lost at the end of its activation. It also states that they "can" be spent "in any order" with General AP...

And Relentless is also specific AP as well

[Mr_Smigs]

Melee expert, casting expert, nimble. Are you claiming all these +1 actions must be taken too?

I'm pretty sure I remember a rule somewhere that says these +1 AP actions are all optional.

Mike

not must be taken,

may be passed,

but the AP is still generated for the model (as page 33, 32 shows)

[FearLord]

not must be taken,

may be passed,

but the AP is still generated for the model (as page 33, 32 shows)

Page 33 is very clear that you do not have to pass specific actions...

[Sliver Chocobo]

I've worked it passion for his say's may because they are other ways for him to gain fast and the others are action modifiers that only usable for actions they state

[karn987]

Look Smigs, you can either accept what we are telling you which is the update and fully recognized way to interrupt that rule. Or you can keep trying to nit pick your way through it and trying to do whatever your real goal actually is.

Yes, I will give you that the RM does not 100% explicitly cover these things meaning there is no section/call-out box telling you how to do it. I've been up and down the Action section and it's not there, so fine. The reason is, because it doesn't need explanation when your not trying to twist and break the rules. It gives you all the other evidence you need to understand how to play it as everyone up above has said already.

It has been understood since Book 1 that these Conditional (+1) actions have ALWAYS been optional. Since Leveticus was the first Master with an ability like this. But Common Sense dictates that in-order to gain the effect, you must perform the requirements. Common Sense also clearly dictates this is optional. If it was a must, it would have been worded differently (its end of discussion with that fact alone, wording does NOT support a must perform) and we would have already discussed this a long time ago.

Instead of looking for a lack of evidence, show us evidence in the RM of where it says you MUST perform these.

Rafkin's ability is obviously not consistent with the rest of the game, meaning it is most likely a misprint rather then the rule of thumb. Look at the other +1 Actions like it, like Leveticus'. There is no May in the relevant location.

Edited September 18, 2011 by karn987

[Cadilon]

Or you can keep trying to nit pick your way through it and trying to do whatever your real goal actually is.

Some people are like that annoying little neighbor kid who comes over while you are working on your car and asks incessant questions. Most of them being "Why?".

And I too am starting to think it has more to do with an alterior motive rather than genuine rules questions or in the sprit of improving the rules.

That's why it's nice to have an 'Ignore' list.

[Ciaran]

Cadilon, agreed. I've started wondering that myself.

Karn, common sense doesn't even need to play into it (thank goodness, it's not so common). Pattern recognition alone would win the day, for anyone not being willful about it.

[psychocamel]

And I too am starting to think it has more to do with an alterior motive rather than genuine rules questions or in the sprit of improving the rules.

Absolutely. When threads like this exist, and especially when the thread maker argues so ridiculously about it it's kind of obvious that it's not someone trying to find out how the rules work or anything.

[Mr_Smigs]

*big inhale* This is gona be a long one (Part 1 - Why. Part 2 - Definition Problems. Part 3 - summary)

Part 1

here's the problem...

[rant on]

in the last month i've been fed alot of "common sense" rules (like slow stacking) that haven't really fit what the rules manual says.

after sitting down and reading the rules manual, i thought, thought my background in programming made many of these interactions obvious....

while a number of little things (like Companion on models back int he old version) have been adjusted, the rules manual made alot of that clear...

then I came back to the forums to ask about the stuff that didn't seem quite right...

and saw there were others that seemed a little off when the rulings given were applied...

yes, i really do want to play the game "right" (as intended)... problem is, I come from a training where instructions given are very very clear.

where the difference between AND and OR can make or break a decision making process.

now, to make matters worse... years of playing with the Michigan groups has taught me that every game you play is a Demo. Anyone who walks up might be someone you can get into the game, IF you can explain it.

Having to tell them "this doesn't quite fit the book, but if you go online it makes sense" has made a good number of people walk away from the table in just about every game i've played.

and telling someone it's common sense from the old days of the game just makes new players feel like they'll get wafflestomped 'cause they haven't memorized the errata like everyone else...

so I hound the rules for real, solid explanations that are consistent so when an observer asks "why" i can tell them.

this is why i treat every rules question as though I'm a complete newbie with no background in the game (aside from having missed the last rules update and still catching up on it)

[/rant off]

now, as someone else pointed out "common sense is so goddamn rare it should be a super power"

Part 2

Going to use "power" here to refer to talents/abilities/spells that affect AP

Where I'm currently boggled is in this general acceptance of "Specific AP granting powers are optional"

this creates a problem,

Flesh Construct's Dumb is listed before actions on the card, in the Abilities section and Dumb is not considered optional (from what I've been told outside the forums)

Logic : Dumb is an abilities, abilities are not optional unless they say so.

The Manaquin has (-1) Slow as an Action

SLOW is an AP granting power. (Negative AP, but it's listed in the same section as other AP granting powers)

but, actions are optional

so, why would anyone take this action?

then we could get into the argument that "Slow as an effect from a spell is not optional because it is an effect"

(Since we've established in my quest for clarity on what an effect is that some Talents/Actions are effects...

but,

if that is true,

then when Justice gives Melee Expert to a model, they MUST use it as well.

now, further,

page 12, indicates that Fast, and Action Modifiers are Abilities, just listed under the Actions section for ease of reference,

it also says these abilities are Always Active unless otherwise indicated.

then it goes to say that

Actions: Any Specific Actions a model can perform in addition to the general Actions outlined on p.33....

CAN... not MUST. so, sure, beneficial actions are optional...

but then we're right back to Slow (one of these "Action"/"Abilities")

Part 3

so we've established

There are Abilities that are Actions, they are listed in the Actions section of the card.

Abilities are Always on, but those that are Actions can be ignored.

Fast and Slow are two of these special Action/Abilities

What "Common Sense" to all the forum veterans (not necessarily new players joining) tells us is

"Every Ability/Action that is a BONUS AP is optional, but any PENALTY is mandatory."

but where is that covered in the rules/errata?

[the_madhatter1]

Wooaaahhhh........

[Mike3838]

I think Fast and Slow are the special cases, giving (or subtracting) one general AP. They are not optional. If you're Fast you have to spend and/or pass 3 action points. If you're Slow you have only 1AP.

Everything else is an ability granting Specific AP and is optional.

That's how I understand the rules anyway, and I think that this way clarifies your question?

Mike

[Ciaran]

Smigs, I see where you're coming from.

The issue is a perception one. Your tone often comes off as nasty, and the consistent grinding on about answered questions is off putting on top of it. This isn't a "what you're doing" issue, it's a "how you're doing it" one. The tone you're seeing is one of frustration.

As a friend pointed out last night: Players that do this are hard to deal with up front, and make for a more solid game in the long run. Have patience, I'll try to have patience in return (I'm the only person I can speak for obviously).

[Bigmike]

I would like to point out that the original question is answered on page 33 under specific action points. the +1 is added to the models ap at the beginning of the activation. the +1 can only be spent on that action. you may however pass that action. Since you can do your ap in any order you save that one for last. In addition slow forces you to forfeit one of your general ap.(pg 34). these pages are in the rules manual if you are wondering

[WUWU]

I definitely see where Smigs is coming from on this, to be honest. Personally, I like things to be as absolutely clear cut as possible, and was always left scratching my head why abilities like Slow or Fast had any sort of number modifier in front of them.

Seems to me none of this would be an issue if Slow, Fast, Instinctual, Nimble, and the various expert/masters were all listed under the talents section without a number modifier, and instead had a brief description, either on the card or in the rule book.

Then you could phrase a talent like Reckless along the lines of, "Once per activation, this model may suffer one wound to receive one additional General AP"

[Mr_Smigs]

I would like to point out that the original question is answered on page 33 under specific action points. the +1 is added to the models ap at the beginning of the activation. the +1 can only be spent on that action. you may however pass that action.

ok... this makes sense.

you DO get the AP. but since it's linked to just the single action, it's "Specific AP" and can be discarded without use.

so it's not 'the AP is optional' it's "using the AP granted on this action, the only action the AP can be used on, is optional" (It just so happens that some of these actions generate extra AP/Events)

that I can pass on to a new player clearly.

thank you BigMike.