Fast, Slow, Spellbreaker

[Mr_Smigs]

Ok,

if a model that is naturally Fast is hit with Slow it loses Fast right?

what happens if that model is then hit with Spellbreaker?

it doesn't have Slow... it just doesn't have Fast either...

[dgraz]

Gaining Slow doesn't make you lose Fast, the two cancel each other out. So if the Slow goes away, there would be nothing to cancel out the Fast.

[Mr_Smigs]

incorrect

If a model is affected by fast gains slow, or vice bersa, the two cancel each other out and both effects are removed. A model is not affected by both fast and slow at the same time.

rules manual, page 34.

the Effects are REMOVED.

gone.

not just "i go fast, then i go slow, so it's a net gain of 0"

Removed.

unless there's some errata I'm missing.

[goblyn13]

And the very part you missing is the first sentence on that page:

The four game Abilities that increase or decrease the number of general AP a model receives during its activation are collectively called Action modifiers. Action modifiers with the same

name do not stack.

So a Model hit with Slow who has fast, isn't affected by them and have them cancel out until the model ACTIVATES so casting spellbreaker when the model has not activated can remove Slow, before the model activates and then would not have fast cancelled out.

The only time it would be an immediate cancel out is if you gained slow during your activation, then if you have any actions left you must forfeit 1 General AP.

Edited September 15, 2011 by goblyn13

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Keep in mind a model with fast as an ability is not an effect.

[Calmdown]

And the very part you missing is the first sentence on that page:

So a Model hit with Slow who has fast, isn't affected by them and have them cancel out until the model ACTIVATES so casting spellbreaker when the model has not activated can remove Slow, before the model activates and then would not have fast cancelled out.

The only time it would be an immediate cancel out is if you gained slow during your activation, then if you have any actions left you must forfeit 1 General AP.

Why does the point at which slow/fast affects your ap have anything at all to do with when they cancel out?

A model gaining slow or fast before its activation will have its ap modified during its next activation, but a fast model still HAS fast at other times and would lose it for its next activation as soon as it gains slow, surely.

The sentence you mentioned has nothing to do with the actual abilities themselves.

[Sholto]

@Goblyn13 - I don't think that rule you quote does what you think. I think Mr Smigs is right per the Rules Manual. It expressly says that both effects are removed, so there is nothing for Spellbreaker to work on.

[Ciaran]

@Goblyn13 - I don't think that rule you quote does what you think. I think Mr Smigs is right per the Rules Manual. It expressly says that both effects are removed, so there is nothing for Spellbreaker to work on.

Sure, if Fast was the result of an effect, rather than an ability.

If someone was given Fast through an effect, then receives Slow before it's activation, it loses both, and is at its normal AP.

A model that IS Fast (Perdita) that is hit with a Slow effect has one less AP during her activation, and does not lose Fast, as it's not an effect.

[Calmdown]

Sure, if Fast was the result of an effect, rather than an ability.

If someone was given Fast through an effect, then receives Slow before it's activation, it loses both, and is at its normal AP.

A model that IS Fast (Perdita) that is hit with a Slow effect has one less AP during her activation, and does not lose Fast, as it's not an effect.

Now you're into totally different territory that the rulebook doesnt cover at all (and it should).

The Fast ability permanently applies the Fast effect.

By your wording, what would actually happen when something gives Perdita slow is:

Perdita gains the Slow effect

Perdita loses both Fast and Slow effects

Perdita regains Fast effect from her Fast ability

That is how it should work, by the book.

We're actually assuming that Slow suppresses Fast for her next activation so far. Assumption is bad :S

The book doesn't differentiate between slow and fast effects and abilities and what happens when a temporary effect is applied in conflict with a permanent ability.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Calmdown

[Sholto]

@Ciaran - it comes down to whether an Ability like Fast(+1) is an Effect itself, whether it creates an Effect on the model or whether it is neither of these things.

If it is an Effect itself, then Perdita's Fast can be Spellbreaker'd off for good. I think we all agree this cannot happen, so an Ability like Fast(+1) is not itself an Effect.

Does the Fast(+1) Ability create the Fast Effect on Perdita? If it does, then the Fast effect can be Spellbreaker'd off, but is immediately re-applied by the Ability on her card. It would also mean that when Perdita is Slow'd both Slow and Fast Effects cancel each other out. However, her card would then immediately re-apply the Fast Effect through the Fast Ability. Hmm. I think we are all agreed this, too, is wrong.

The third option is that an Ability is not an Effect and does not itself create Effects, but I am not sure the RM supports that.

EDIT: Calmdown ninjas me with mostly the same points.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Sholto

[Ciaran]

Now you're into totally different territory that the rulebook doesnt cover at all (and it should).

The Fast ability permanently applies the Fast effect.

By your wording, what would actually happen when something gives Perdita slow is:

Perdita gains the Slow effect

Perdita loses both Fast and Slow effects

Perdita regains Fast effect from her Fast ability

That is how it should work, by the book.

We're actually assuming that Slow suppresses Fast for her next activation so far. Assumption is bad :S

The book doesn't differentiate between slow and fast effects and abilities and what happens when a temporary effect is applied in conflict with a permanent ability.

Check out the first Action Modifier example. It spells it out the situation using Lilith being Slowed. It states on her next activation she loses one AP.

[Sholto]

@Ciaran - I think we are generally in agreement on the intention, and on what should (and does) happen in practice. I don't think anyone is actually suggesting we should change the way we play Perdita. The point here is that a close reading of the RM throws up some interesting points, and that if any attention is being paid to the wording in the RM then perhaps this, too, is worth looking at as well.

[demkoenig]

Haha, sometimes it seems as if people read the rules hypertechnically, looking to catch some sort of contradiction or hidden conflict, as if doing so wins you a special prize from Wyrd.

This seems pretty straightforward:

Model A has Fast (from effect or ability).

X gives Model A Slow.

IF Y Spellbreaks or Dispels the Slow before Model A activates, then Model A should still have fast.

If not, then when Model A activates the Slow negates the Fast and Model A loses one AP that turn. Spellbreak or Dispel would not do anything because the Slow cancelled the Fast (effect or ability, it shouldn't matter).

I mean, rules are generally meant to work in a way that makes sense. If possible, avoid hypertechnical reading and just play the game in a manner that makes common sense.

[Therapist]

If slow is gained but not applied until the models next activation does that mean that you cant slow Perdita twice to reduce her to 1ap unless it happens during her activation? (once to cancel fast and one to give her slow) If so this might solve an alp related question i have on another thread.

Also, i too am perplexed by the dissecting of language that goes on. This game is complex enough that it very well should work that way, but the language in the rules is, for lack of a better word, sloppy (no disrespect intended towrd Wyrd. Its still a very young game and a young company and they have been tightening things up ove time). Sometimes you can dissectthe language and get something meaningful but the vast majority of the time it is done on the forums it leads to greater confusion.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Therapist

[Ciaran]

If slow is gained but not applied until the models next activation does that mean that you cant slow Perdita twice to reduce her to 1ap unless it happens during her activation? (once to cancel fast and one to give her slow) If so this might solve an alp related question i have on another thread.

That all depends on when you do that check. It's a good question, I'm curious about how that is played.

[Ciaran]

Haha, sometimes it seems as if people read the rules hypertechnically, looking to catch some sort of contradiction or hidden conflict, as if doing so wins you a special prize from Wyrd.

This seems pretty straightforward:

Model A has Fast (from effect or ability).

X gives Model A Slow.

IF Y Spellbreaks or Dispels the Slow before Model A activates, then Model A should still have fast.

If not, then when Model A activates the Slow negates the Fast and Model A loses one AP that turn. Spellbreak or Dispel would not do anything because the Slow cancelled the Fast (effect or ability, it shouldn't matter).

I mean, rules are generally meant to work in a way that makes sense. If possible, avoid hypertechnical reading and just play the game in a manner that makes common sense.

You're not so bad. That seems the way it's supposed to work.

Let's look at playing a brawl tonight!

[Ciaran]

Ok,

if a model that is naturally Fast is hit with Slow it loses Fast right?

what happens if that model is then hit with Spellbreaker?

it doesn't have Slow... it just doesn't have Fast either...

To go back to this: Depends on when those effects are applied. It seems as though they should be applied at the beginning of that model's activation. Anything done before that point should affect it, including Spellbreaking slow before it affects the model. If it's immediate that changes things, and that's where clarification would help.

[dgraz]

Haha, sometimes it seems as if people read the rules hypertechnically, looking to catch some sort of contradiction or hidden conflict, as if doing so wins you a special prize from Wyrd.

This seems pretty straightforward:

Model A has Fast (from effect or ability).

X gives Model A Slow.

IF Y Spellbreaks or Dispels the Slow before Model A activates, then Model A should still have fast.

If not, then when Model A activates the Slow negates the Fast and Model A loses one AP that turn. Spellbreak or Dispel would not do anything because the Slow cancelled the Fast (effect or ability, it shouldn't matter).

I mean, rules are generally meant to work in a way that makes sense. If possible, avoid hypertechnical reading and just play the game in a manner that makes common sense.

QFT. All this rules lawyering lately is giving me a headache.

[Calmdown]

QFT. All this rules lawyering lately is giving me a headache.

Trying to understand rules is not rules lawyering. Trying to make sure you know how and why an interaction works is not rules lawyering. There's no harm in having understanding.

It's aggravating when people try to make out that those of us who take the time to learn and understand rules, and frequently apply that knowledge to help answer others' questions, are somehow doing it for selfish reasons.

Now back on topic - this needs a marshal answer since it's in no way covered by the book, that I can see at least!

[dgraz]

Now back on topic - this needs a marshal answer since it's in no way covered by the book, that I can see at least!

Trying to understand a rule is one thing. Picking apart every little word in a sentence is lawyering.

Oh and....

It's aggravating when a Marshal answers a question and is told he is wrong.

[goblyn13]

Fast is an Ability that grants the Fast effect upon a model at activation, just as a model that has the Slow Ability is granted the slow effect upon that models activation.

Slow does not stack, however if a model gets slow from model X, then gets slow from model Y, then agains from model Z, he has three slows on him.

However the model also has fast (effect or ability). So when he activates (because that's the only time it matters) you tally up, Model X slow is negated by fast, leaving him with 2 slows however since the effects don't stack he only loses 1 General AP. He could have 14 slows on him, but until he activates they don't go away, at the during of that model's activation is when you determine if a model is affected by slow or not.

If a model gained Slow during its activation (hits model that causes him to suffer slow) and he still has General AP left, He immediately suffers the effect of slow and loses 1 AP. If it happens at the end of his activation and he has no AP, or it happens after the model has activated, note that it has been affected by slow, and when the models next activation occurs, that is when all of the slow effects will be cleared (unless Spellbreaker is cast to remove the effect before the model's next activation)

[Ciaran]

Thanks, having it spelled out should help.

[Mr_Smigs]

Fast is an Ability that grants the Fast effect upon a model at activation, just as a model that has the Slow Ability is granted the slow effect upon that models activation.

Slow does not stack, however if a model gets slow from model X, then gets slow from model Y, then agains from model Z, he has three slows on him.

However the model also has fast (effect or ability). So when he activates (because that's the only time it matters) you tally up, Model X slow is negated by fast, leaving him with 2 slows however since the effects don't stack he only loses 1 General AP. He could have 14 slows on him, but until he activates they don't go away, at the during of that model's activation is when you determine if a model is affected by slow or not.

If a model gained Slow during its activation (hits model that causes him to suffer slow) and he still has General AP left, He immediately suffers the effect of slow and loses 1 AP. If it happens at the end of his activation and he has no AP, or it happens after the model has activated, note that it has been affected by slow, and when the models next activation occurs, that is when all of the slow effects will be cleared (unless Spellbreaker is cast to remove the effect before the model's next activation)

this is a dangerous assumption, that the "ability" and the "effect" are separate,

because now you've opened a question to secondary effects that are vaguely referenced...

for example, if a model with the Slow ability is near Alps...

if that same model (Has Slow) resists the Alp's ability to grant "Slow" ... then RAI, it shouldn't suffer the damage for "receiving slow" right?

but,

if the Slow ability gives the Slow Effect at activation, this means the model automatically "receives slow" at it's activation even if it wins the duel... so it gets caught taking the damage either way...

this whole reading of the rules "hypertechnically" is what leads to realizations that the rules as "intended" and as read by players are two very different things... many people are trained to read instructions exactly as worded (most are programmers or technical writers) so as to avoid confusion.

but we've got a whole separate thread for that...

if we were to take your interpretation,

then what happens when a model with Fast normally, gets Slow, and is hit with Fast again...

can they have same-named abilities twice at the same time... or is their net gain zero?(gotta check book, but i'm fairly certain there was something in the RM about, no)

additionally,

if a model can have "multiple slows".. does that mean a model with "multiple slows" that tries to use Shrug Off must have an equal number of effect removals?

or does simply removing the "slow" effect remove ALL slow effects?

Edited September 15, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Mr_Smigs]

and, if a single removal of "slow" is all it takes, that means a model with "Fast" naturally can never be "slowed" by that interpretation...

Model is Fast,

Model gets Slow counter...

by the book, model is now neither fast or slow, and another slow would make the model slowed in the next turn.

by the above...

model is fast

model gets umpteen bazillion slow counters

model acts normally.

[Keltheos]

Check out the first Action Modifier example. It spells it out the situation using Lilith being Slowed. It states on her next activation she loses one AP.

Imagine that.

As if it was anticipated someone would try to hyperanalyze the language.

[Mr_Smigs]

sadly, that's all blacked out in my copy...

and does not answer the initial question.

and Goblyn's comment of "slow does not stack" seems contradictory to stacking it against a single interaction of Fast...

if a model has 3 "slows", but naturally has "fast", then, right before its activation is made "fast" again... are they still slow when they activate?