Dreamer / LCB Activation Clarification.

[Dolomyte]

I don't know why this has not come up before, I tried to search for it but to be honest my search fu sucks.

Situation

1. Dreamer is on table (0 ap used)

2. Daydream moves forward, unburies lcb 6 inches ahead of him, reburies lcb (2 ap and a 0 used by daydream)

3. Dreamer activates, Fly moves forward, unburies LCB (2 0's, 1 general ap used)

4. LCB activates moves forward, melee expert attacks something, all dones (1 general ap, 1 melee expert ap used)

5. Dreamer comes in and activates, unloads bomb (1 ap for spell)

I have played it that the dreamer cannot activate a second time, but someone has been arguing with me that he can because they have the 3 general ap to use between them.

so I could see this being ruled one of three ways

A. Dreamer cannot activate a second time, that last ap is wasted.

B. Dreamer can infact activate a second time, bomb unloaded.

C. ????? scenario I am unaware of.

[Gensuke626]

I don't know why this has not come up before, I tried to search for it but to be honest my search fu sucks.

Situation

1. Dreamer is on table (0 ap used)

2. Daydream moves forward, unburies lcb 6 inches ahead of him, reburies lcb (2 ap and a 0 used by daydream)

3. Dreamer activates, Fly moves forward, unburies LCB (2 0's, 1 general ap used)

4. LCB activates moves forward, melee expert attacks something, all dones (1 general ap, 1 melee expert ap used)

5. Dreamer comes in and activates, unloads bomb (1 ap for spell)

I have played it that the dreamer cannot activate a second time, but someone has been arguing with me that he can because they have the 3 general ap to use between them.

so I could see this being ruled one of three ways

A. Dreamer cannot activate a second time, that last ap is wasted.

B. Dreamer can infact activate a second time, bomb unloaded.

C. ????? scenario I am unaware of.

Actually...Part of this is played wrong. I just Checked for errata and I didn't find any so here's the problem. Using your example.

Dreamer is on table.

Daydream moves and Unburies LCB.

Per 'One Master' LCB Immediately Activates. (This right here stops 4 from happening because LCB activated already so can not activate at step 4 of your version.)

[Dolomyte]

Actually...Part of this is played wrong. I just Checked for errata and I didn't find any so here's the problem. Using your example.

Dreamer is on table.

Daydream moves and Unburies LCB.

Per 'One Master' LCB Immediately Activates. (This right here stops 4 from happening because LCB activated already so can not activate at step 4 of your version.)

Immediately activates is after the current models activation, it does not interrupt the activation. I know, confusing wording.

[Gensuke626]

Immediately activates is after the current models activation, it does not interrupt the activation. I know, confusing wording.

Ahh...I see where they changed that...darn rules Manual.

Anyhow...back to your question...No, The Dreamer is not allowed to Activate a second time because he does not have reactivate.

[Fetid Strumpet]

When Chompy or the Dreamer are brought on to the table Immediate activation acts more like...well similar to an automatic Womanizer from Seamus. When it goes off it states that as soon as the next model would get a chance to activate it is going to be Chompy/Dreamer. It doesn't break into the current activation in any way. So, for example, if the Dreamer is unlucky enough to be able to be targeted by Perdita and she blows him away on her first (1) Action, we pause as Chompy is brought into play in B2B with the Dreamer. We the resume finishing Perdita's remaining 2 AP and 0 AP. Once Perdita is finished, Chompy goes. This is important because lets say that Perdita wasn't certain she was gonna put the Dreamer under during her activation and she has companioned her family to help, it doesn't matter about her family's simultaneous activation, the instant Perdita is done Chompy inserts himself into the activation sequence.

The sequence described above does work and is what Karn has affectionately dubbed "The Dreamer Shuffle" and using it gives every possibility that on the first activation of the game The Dreamer can not only deliver Chompy into your deployment zone to attack and kill one of your models, almost wherever that model is, but also deliver his entire crew right into melee range of your entire crew no matter where they are. To add insult to injury he can also then easily be pulled back.

I saw one game, and I know this happens all the time, where The Dreamer activated, delivered Chompy into a Colette player's deployment zone, killed both coryphee with Chompy, and Chompy then disappeared, but the Dreamer also dropped his entire crew on top of Colette's and wiped every single model Colette had off the board during turn one. All that remained surviving after the strike was Colette, and she was dead on turn 5.

So, yeah, the Dreamer... working as intended. I would love to be a fly on the wall of the designers offices when they were discussing things that were too powerful to let into the game. =D

[Gensuke626]

When Chompy or the Dreamer are brought on to the table Immediate activation acts more like...well similar to an automatic Womanizer from Seamus. When it goes off it states that as soon as the next model would get a chance to activate it is going to be Chompy/Dreamer. It doesn't break into the current activation in any way. So, for example, if the Dreamer is unlucky enough to be able to be targeted by Perdita and she blows him away on her first (1) Action, we pause as Chompy is brought into play in B2B with the Dreamer. We the resume finishing Perdita's remaining 2 AP and 0 AP. Once Perdita is finished, Chompy goes. This is important because lets say that Perdita wasn't certain she was gonna put the Dreamer under during her activation and she has companioned her family to help, it doesn't matter about her family's simultaneous activation, the instant Perdita is done Chompy inserts himself into the activation sequence.

The sequence described above does work and is what Karn has affectionately dubbed "The Dreamer Shuffle" and using it gives every possibility that on the first activation of the game The Dreamer can not only deliver Chompy into your deployment zone to attack and kill one of your models, almost wherever that model is, but also deliver his entire crew right into melee range of your entire crew no matter where they are. To add insult to injury he can also then easily be pulled back.

I saw one game, and I know this happens all the time, where The Dreamer activated, delivered Chompy into a Colette player's deployment zone, killed both coryphee with Chompy, and Chompy then disappeared, but the Dreamer also dropped his entire crew on top of Colette's and wiped every single model Colette had off the board during turn one. All that remained surviving after the strike was Colette, and she was dead on turn 5.

So, yeah, the Dreamer... working as intended. I would love to be a fly on the wall of the designers offices when they were discussing things that were too powerful to let into the game. =D

That's...interesting...I could have sworn that Sketch had clarified that burying the Dreamer or Chompy means they can't activate again later in the turn if they've already activated.

[Fetid Strumpet]

They can't. As a serious question, which part made it sound like they could?

0: Daydream activates and companions The Dreamer.

1: Daydream sits at edge of deployment zone.

2: Daydream moves 6" forward.

3: Daydream uses Magical extension to cast frightening dream, placing Chompy 6" in upfield of the Daydream.

4: Daydream uses Calm Nightmares to bury chompy and replaces him with the Dreamer.

5: Daydream is done. Dreamer now Activates.

6: Dreamer uses I can fly (0).

7: Dreamer moves 7" upfield.

8: Dreamer uses Frightening dream, most likely activating the Trigger, to drop all of his nightmares, including Chompy, 6" forward.

9: Compy goes and companions with the Daydream that was just dropped by the Dreamer.

10: Chompy attacks with his general AP and Melee expert AP, burning stones and cards to kill whatever he popped up next to.

11: Compy done, Daydream goes.

12: Daydream uses lead nightmare to pull chompy back out of the melee, or away for any enemy models nearby.

13: Daydream uses lead nightmare to pull chompy back into b2b.

14: Daydream uses calm nightmare to put chompy away and replace with dreamer.

15: Daydream ends his activation, and the Dreamer player now finishes his first activation sequence of the game.

[Dolomyte]

Stuff

I know the alp bomb sequence. the question was raised because of the term immediately activate. I did not feel they could, just wanted to get a definite answer from the rules marshalls.

[Mr_Smigs]

wait... when a model is buried, doesn't its activation end?

so, if chompy is brought on the table (flagged for activation like Companion)

then buried (activation ends)

how can he reactivate?

[Hatchethead]

how can he reactivate?

He can't. Unless he somehow gains Reactivate.

As soon as either the Dreamer or Chompy buries, their activation is over. Any general AP remaining that could have otherwise been "spent" by the individual is automatically declared to be a Pass action (which doesn't count toward the total in the Shared Actions pool). If both end their activation and there is still AP left in the Shared pool, it is lost. If both models end their activations without declaring a single general AP action, leaving 3 AP in the Shared Actions pool, that 3 AP is unusable ... all of their "potential" general AP was spent on Pass actions ... which doesn't expend the AP in the pool ... but it does remove a models ability to draw AP from the pool.

When activating Dreamer/Chompy, at least one of their general AP actions will be an automatic Pass action, as they only have 3 AP to spend between them, but both receive a potential 2 general AP. So if Dreamer spends 2 of the 3, then Chompy activates, 1 of Chompy's 2 potential AP will be a Pass because there is only 1 AP to draw from the Shared pool.

Clear as mud, right?

Edited September 10, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Dolomyte]

He can't. Unless he somehow gains Reactivate.

As soon as either the Dreamer or Chompy buries, their activation is over. Any general AP remaining that could have otherwise been "spent" by the individual is automatically declared to be a Pass action (which doesn't count toward the total in the Shared Actions pool). If both end their activation and there is still AP left in the Shared pool, it is lost. If both models end their activations without declaring a single general AP action, leaving 3 AP in the Shared Actions pool, that 3 AP is unusable ... all of their "potential" general AP was spent on Pass actions ... which doesn't expend the AP in the pool ... but it does remove a models ability to draw AP from the pool.

When activating Dreamer/Chompy, at least one of their general AP actions will be an automatic Pass action, as they only have 3 AP to spend between them, but both receive a potential 2 general AP. So if Dreamer spends 2 of the 3, then Chompy activates, 1 of Chompy's 2 potential AP will be a Pass because there is only 1 AP to draw from the Shared pool.

Clear as mud, right?

Completely agree, which is how I said it worked to the player. Still would like a rules marshall, but I think we are all on the same page.

Now go confirm my other question hatchet =p

[poulpox]

wait... when a model is buried, doesn't its activation end?

so, if chompy is brought on the table (flagged for activation like Companion)

then buried (activation ends)

how can he reactivate?

The trick here is that when Chompy is brought on the table by the daydream, he still has to wait for the Daydream to finish its activation; the daydream using its (0) action re-burries LCB, technically before the latter has activated. LCB has been placed and removed but hasn't activated.

[Mike3838]

As soon as either the Dreamer or Chompy buries, their activation is over.

Even if they're buried without having activated...? Or are we only talking about burying a model mid-activation?

Mike

[poulpox]

They're talking about mid-activation burrying.

If a model hasn't activated yet, it still can/needs to activate

[Fetid Strumpet]

Correct. When Chompy is unburied by the first Daydream he never gets a chance to activate because the Daydream also Reburies him before he ever gets a chance to do anything. It is done purely for the movement positioning.

By the same token you can see it happen with The Dreamer during the same sequence. The Dreamer begins in play in a companion sequence with the Daydream. The Dreamer is buried to make way for Chompy bits to be flung forward (being buried does not end the Dreamer's ability to activate for the turn) and then reappears wherever Chompy was standing when the Daydream calms nightmare. At no point did either Chompy or the Dreamer lose their ability to activate by being part of this manipulation chain.

[Calmdown]

I saw one game, and I know this happens all the time, where The Dreamer activated, delivered Chompy into a Colette player's deployment zone, killed both coryphee with Chompy, and Chompy then disappeared, but the Dreamer also dropped his entire crew on top of Colette's and wiped every single model Colette had off the board during turn one. All that remained surviving after the strike was Colette, and she was dead on turn 5.

Not sure how exactly this happened? Dreamer needs to activate to get Chompy into an enemy deployment zone, and as soon as he's buried, he can't activate again meaning no Frightening Dream & All My Friends.

To the rest of the thread:

Once Dreamer or Chompy has activated, they cannot activated again in the same turn - the same for all models without Reactivate. It doesn't matter if they're buried with AP remaining, as being buried during your activation ends your activation for the turn.

Note that the above does not end or remove your activation if you are not currently active when you're buried, which is why burying/unburying Dreamer and LCB up the board is legal.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The Dreamer dropped his whole crew at the same time he popped out Chompy because he used the Spell Frightening Dreams to plop out all his nightmares. Chompy is a nightmare and a valid target to unbury during it so the Dreamer's actions were

(0) I can fly

(1) Move 7" up

(1) Frightening Dreams (activating trigger and dropping all nightmares he had within 6" of his position.

Dreamer is done, Chompy now goes.

[Hatchethead]

Note that the above does not end or remove your activation if you are not currently active when you're buried, which is why burying/unburying Dreamer and LCB up the board is legal.

Yeah, sorry, I should have made that more clear.

You can only end an activation once it has begun, so burying a model prior to it's activation does not rob said model of it's activation. On the same token, you can bury/unbury a model that has already activated and is otherwise out of AP. Unless the bury takes effect mid-activation, burying has no impact on the model's ability to activate (or reactivate).

At least, that's my understanding.

[Gensuke626]

*takes notes* Ahh...I think the key that I was missing was the whole burying before activating thing...that and RM page 31 regarding mid activation activation effects...

[Hatchethead]

It should be noted that some of this stuff isn't actually stated in the RM or on the Dreamer/Chompy stat card. Some of it is inferred from the RAW, some of it required clarification from a Marshal and will likely appear in a future FAQ/errata. For instance, I do not believe it is ever stated anywhere that burying ends a model's activation, but it hath been so ruled.