Feed on Dreams vs. (+1)Fast

[Q'iq'el]

The question is simple:

If a model that has the (+1)Fast ability or effect is affected by Slow, does it suffer the 1 Wd from the Feed on Dreams ability?

On one hand the model doesn't become Slow, because the two effects cancel each other, so it can be argued it doesn't "receive" Slow (the word used in the Feed on Dreams rule).

On the other hand, the model is affected by Slow, otherwise there would be no interaction with Fast and both effects removing each other.

But does "receive" means being affected, or does the effect has to stick and the model become Slow? Which one is it?

TIA for answers.

*cookie*

Edited September 16, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Adanedhel]

Exact Wording:

If a model affected by Fast gains Slow, or vice cersa the 2 cancel each other out and both effects are removed. A model is not affected by both Fast and Slow at the same time.

So Slow would counter Fast, and the model would have neither affecting it, I think

[Therapist]

Ivebeen figuring the same thing. my Alp using friend insist it doesnt work that way but i would be interested to find out theyre wrong because I tend to run Perdiata against Neverborn.

[Mike3838]

What's the exact wording on Feed on Dreams. Does it say "affect" or "receive"?

Mike

[Soundwave]

Receiving.

[Mike3838]

To me then, even if youre Fast you "receive" Slow. It's definitely applied to you and you receive it.

However because you're Fast it never actually "affects" you. Obviously it does have an effect in that it cancels out your Fast, but it doesn't "affect" you in that the effects of Slow don't stick.

In short, I believe you take the FoD wounds.

Mike

[Q'iq'el]

Aren't these words used in opposite way in the Rules Manual though?

If you look at the descriptions of Auras, Pulses or Blasts, "affected" models are the ones which get the effects of such spells applied to them, without determining if the effect fizzled or was applied successfully.

At the moment I can't recall any context in which word "receive" is used, other than the very rules for Fast and Slow:

"This model receives 1 additional general AP".

or

"This model forfeits 1 general AP".

It's not much, but doesn't it suggest that to "receive" something means to actually receive the effect, rather than merely have the effect applied (and perhaps fizzle or get canceled)?

[Mike3838]

I don't have the manual to hand, you may be right.

Semantically though, receive refers to the transfer from one model to another, and affect refers to what happens to the receiver. In the real world I think you'd have to receive something before it could affect you. Of course we know that Malifaux rules are rarely this intuitive!

Mike

[Therapist]

Semantically if you throw a baseball at my head and it bounces off my skull I never received it. I dont think were going to get anywhere dissecting language in the rulebook.

An official ruling would be awesome.

[ProdigalPunk]

Specifically to this:

If a model that has the (+1)Fast ability or effect is affected by Slow, does it suffer the 1 Wd from the Feed on Dreams ability?

Check [] YES or []NO

[Q'iq'el]

Inquiring minds want to know!

*cookie*

Edited September 16, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Mr_Smigs]

ok,

a model that already has slow, can suffer Alp Effects, right?

so, while it is not gaining any effect it didn't already have, the abilities still kick off..

why would Fast be any different?

[Q'iq'el]

First, model which is Slow still gains Slow. They just don't stack so the new one replaces the old. Secondly, that's what the rule on the Feed on Dreams says - which may be a reminder, or an exception defined in the rule.

The difference obviously is, that a Fast model doesn't become Slow in the identical situation.

The question simply seeks to clarify this difference - does it simply require the Slow cast on the model, or does the model need to become Slow to receive the Wounds.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Mr_Smigs]

First' date=' model which is [b']Slow still gains Slow. They just don't stack so the new one replaces the old. Secondly, that's what the rule on the Feed on Dreams says - which may be a reminder, or an exception defined in the rule.

The difference obviously is, that a Fast model doesn't become Slow in the identical situation.

The question simply seeks to clarify this difference - does it simply require the Slow cast on the model, or does the model need to become Slow to receive the Wounds.

right on. the logic there makes sense...

i just thought the context of the wording, that part about slow models, established that the effect didn't need to impart slow to the model to still count...

[Q'iq'el]

The sightings of unusual amount of smog have been reported in Atlanta, but I think it must be the Rules Marshals' head-smoke...

[Calmdown]

Not sure why anyone thinks you wouldnt take the Wd for gaining slow. The rulebook specifically says "when a model gains slow, it loses fast". It even uses the word gain. You gain it, and then they both fall off.

Then another Alp makes you gain it again and you DIE!

[Q'iq'el]

Not sure why anyone thinks you wouldnt take the Wd for gaining slow. The rulebook specifically says "when a model gains slow, it loses fast". It even uses the word gain. You gain it, and then they both fall off.

Then another Alp makes you gain it again and you DIE!

The thing is, Feed on Dreams does not speak about gaining Slow. It may be me clinging to semantics, or it may be a deliberate omission.

But I agree with posters above me, that hearing what the intention is and having a ruling on this matter is the way to solve it. Giving, receiving, canceling - meanings can swing both ways.

[Calmdown]

The thing is' date=' [b']Feed on Dreams does not speak about gaining Slow. It may be me clinging to semantics, or it may be a deliberate omission.

But I agree with posters above me, that hearing what the intention is and having a ruling on this matter is the way to solve it. Giving, receiving, canceling - meanings can swing both ways.

Indeed, it uses the word receive, not gain, meaning my argument is invalid.

However, it still clearly must receive Slow in the first place in order for Fast to be cancelled out. Whilst its evident that the two drop off, nowhere in the rules does it suggest that "a fast model gaining slow loses fast instead of gaining slow" or something to that effect; it does state that "a model gaining slow has both effects removed" [sic]. For an effect to be removed it has to have it in the first place. Ergo, Alp Dg.

I think semantics are fine in rules terms - rules basically are semantics, when it comes down to it - but in this case, I think it's clear.

PS. It's pretty bad that I'm starting to remember what page number certain rules are on :S

[Q'iq'el]

Well, I always understood the "both effects" parts as covering the interaction in both directions - slow model gaining fast has slow removed and fast model gaining slow has fast removed.

I don't think the timeline here is of crucial importance anymore. In many abilities in Malifaux there are clear steps - duel, apply results, apply triggers, remove models etc.

Here you are at apply effects stage (Slow) and there's no clearly defined sub-stage (after gaining slow, but before losing fast). In fact you apply effect and then you get a model without fast, in a way.

After which Feed on Dreams simply doesn't trigger.

or does.

I don't think the key is in the wording here. I sort of assumed it was in timing, but I've realized during the recent anti-Alp Bomb brainstorms these abilities are not precisely timed - especially the differential between gaining slow and losing fast is not there, as far as I can tell.

[Calmdown]

I don't think the timeline here is of crucial importance anymore. In many abilities in Malifaux there are clear steps - duel, apply results, apply triggers, remove models etc.

Although I think there is *always* a timeline - even if it's just a meta-timeline that you're inventing yourself - we can throw that away if you like.

But rulings can be made easily on implicit wording, in this case the part where it says "has both effects removed". You cant remove something that isn't there

I don't think the key is in the wording here. I sort of assumed it was in timing, but I've realized during the recent anti-Alp Bomb brainstorms these abilities are not precisely timed - especially the differential between gaining slow and losing fast is not there, as far as I can tell.

By the same token, applying logic to rulings is not something I'm personally confident in after the last few days. Which is a shame, because we're now in a situation where discussions on this forum can only end when a rules marshal posts, due the capricious nature of rulings right now.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not sure about that, but I've been playing with Fast giving no protection for several games now and I'll be saying lots of *AHA*s to my Dreamer opponents, depending on the ruling.

Waiting patiently (no Dreamer game on the horizon right now), but also hoping for a clear and easy to understand resolution.

[Ozz]

Personally i have always used it as you take the wounds anyway, as you receive the affect, but after reading all this, it makes me curious about something else (more than just the actual answer to the question posed) And that is, if you have fast and receive slow, it removes both ability's, can you then receive slow again before you activate, and therefore gain slow, taking you from your 3 actions down to just 1 if you are slow enough to activate, allowing that to happen?

[Dolomyte]

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[Dolomyte]

I'm not sure about that' date=' but I've been playing with [b']Fast giving no protection for several games now and I'll be saying lots of *AHA*s to my Dreamer opponents, depending on the ruling.

Waiting patiently (no Dreamer game on the horizon right now), but also hoping for a clear and easy to understand resolution.

I think if the whole fast thing works, it will be a definite shift in power against the alps in my mind. I dont know if it will fix the problem outright, but it will offer a pretty damn good solution.

[Smokey616]

Jeez! You all still worried about the stinking cheesy beard that is the alp bomb?! Grow a pair! Gun em down! Poke your friends in the face until they stop using it! In fact I'm gonna make a stand right now!!! (walks over to alps and stamps all over them turning them into funny coloured 2p pieces) That'll teach em! People unite!! Stamp on your alps!!!

Ste

(Devout follower of the dreamer, Neverborn loyalist)

[Q'iq'el]

Personally i have always used it as you take the wounds anyway, as you receive the affect, but after reading all this, it makes me curious about something else (more than just the actual answer to the question posed) And that is, if you have fast and receive slow, it removes both ability's, can you then receive slow again before you activate, and therefore gain slow, taking you from your 3 actions down to just 1 if you are slow enough to activate, allowing that to happen?

I think that is actually one of the examples in the Rules Manual (or maybe in the old Book 1).

Yes, if a Fast model gains Slow, they cancel, and then if it gains Slow again, it becomes Slow. Double Fast will remove Slow and then make model Fast as well.

The reason is that effects do not stack, but since Fast and Slow remove each other, there's no effect, so the next application will stick.

The only model I know, where understanding these mechanics really matters, is the Flesh Construct. Otherwise it is a rather situational problem.