Wording on Blinding Flash trigger

[EvilGez]

I know that WEiRD sKeTCH has made a ruling on Colette's Blinding Flash trigger, but i would like to clarify what the intended wording should read now.

From the ruling the trigger should now be considered to read

Blinding Flash- After an attack has resolved, the model that attacked this model receives Slow. Switch this model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18".

This seems to clarify the point that the trigger would occur, according to the ruling by WEiRD sKeTCH, which would mean that Colette is at the location of the attack to receive the damage, if any, and any triggers that are associated with the damage, before her trigger would occur.

[magicpockets]

Yep

[EvilGez]

If we considered the rules for timing (Manual pg 6) as written

Timing

Game effects follow a specific timing sequence.

* Each sentence in an effect's description must be completed before moving to the next sentence.

* If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused.

* Effects end when indicated in their descriptions. If an effect does not list an end point, it ends during the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase (see p.30). Resolve ending effects in the following order:

o At the start of a Step end first.

o During a Step end next.

o End of a Step end last.

o Multiple effects that end within the same Step end simultaneously.

* Players should resolve effects occuring simultaneously in the following order:

o Effects that must occur will occur before effects that may occur.

o Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of the player's models (p.31).

o Any effects that are not controlled by either player, such as terrain or environmental or Encounter effects, are resolved last and affect models simultaneously. Players with multiple models affected always resolve the effects in an order of their choosing.

The majority of effects will end in the Closing Phase. The ending of effects occurs in a specific order: effects that end at the start of the Closing Phase end first, followed by effects that end during the Closing Phase, and finally effects that occur at the end of the Closing Phase occur last. Within each of these steps, effects end simultaneously. If an effect does not have an end listed, it ends during the Resolve Effects step of the Closing Phase.

Triggers (pg 12)

Triggers: Triggers can be activated when the model meets the conditions for their use (see Triggers p.26). To help players remember which stats have Triggers, those stats are highlighted in the model's Faction colour on the stat card. Triggers with a suit requirement "ghosted' gray instead of black indicate that the suit requirement has been met by a suit in that stat. (Note: Stats which have Triggers associated with them will be colored in the model description and on the model's Stat Card.)

Triggers (pg 26)

Some models possess one or more Triggers which can be used during Duels. A Trigger consists of the stat it is connected to, as well as the suit(s) a model needs in its Duel total for its use. When the model is using the stat indicated in the Trigger in a Duel and has the suit(s) needed in its total, it can declare it is using the Trigger, applying the Trigger's effects as indicated in its description. A model can only declare it is using one Trigger during a Duel, regardless of the number of riggers it possesses. If a Trigger allows the model to take additional Actions, those Actions do not cost AP (see Actions, p.32) to use. Paralyzed models may not declare Triggers. The effects of a Trigger are limited to the Action it is activated with. Additional models are not affected by the Trigger unless it is stated otherwise in its description.

Performing a Simple Duel (pg 26-27)

1. Flip for starting Duel Total.

2. Change Starting Total or Pass.

2.a. Cheat Fate

2.b. Use Soulstones

3. Determine Final Duel Total.

4. Declare Trigger.

5. Determine Success.

5.a. Total equals or exceeds TN = success

5.b. Total lower than TN = failure

6. Apply Duel Results.

Casting Sequence (pg. 51)

1. Declare Spell and Target

2.Casting Duel

__2.a. Casterer Flips for Starting Duel Total.

__2.b. Caster Change Starting Total or Pass.

____2.b.a. Caster Cheat Fate

____2.b.b. Caster Use Soulstones

__2.c. Caster Determines Final Duel Total.

__2.d. Caster Declares a Trigger.

____2.d.a. Immediate Attacker Trigger occurs

____2.d.b. All other Triggers occur as written

__2.e. Caster Determines Success.

____2.e.a. Total equals or exceeds Spell TN = success

____2.e.b. Total lower than Spell TN = failure

3. Resist Duels (if necessary) (Defenders Resist TN = Attackers success

Final Duel Total)

__3.a. Defender Flips for Starting Duel Total.

__3.b. Defender change Starting Total or Pass.

____3.b.a. Defender Cheat Fate

____3.b.b. Defender Use Soulstones

__3.c. Defender determine Final Duel Total.

__3.d. Caster Meets Additional Requirements.

__3.e. Defender declare Trigger.

____3.e.a. Immediate defender Trigger occurs

____3.e.b. All other Triggers occur as written

__3.f. Defender determine Success.

____3.f.a. Total equals or exceeds attack TN = success

____3.f.b. Total lower than attack TN = failure

4. Apply Duel Results.

__4.a. Apply Before Damage Triggers.

____4.a.a. Apply Caster Before Damage Triggers (as per timing rules)

____4.a.b. Apply Defender Before Damage Triggers (as per timing rules)

__4.b. Damage Flip.

____4.b.a Cheat Damage Flip if no negative flips occured

__4.c. Apply After Damage Triggers.

____4.c.a. Apply Caster After Damage Triggers (as per timing rules)

____4.c.b. Apply Defender After Damage Triggers (as per timing rules)

5. Apply After Attack Triggers.

__5.a. Apply Caster After Attack Triggers (as per timing rules)

__5.b. Apply Defender After Attack Triggers (as per timing rules)

So according to the ruling this I how I play this spell.

Example

1. Rasputina targets Colette with Decembers Curse

.

2.Casting Duel

__2.a. Rasputina flips an 11 Masks (Starting total 18 Tomes & Masks)

__2.b. Rasputina spends a soulstone to flip another card, adding a 4 Crows

__2.c. Rasputina's Final Duel Total = 22 Tomes & Masks & Crows

__2.d. Rasputina Declares Overpower Trigger (After Damage Trigger)

__2.e. Rasputina exceeds Casting TN so Spell hits Colette.

.

3. Colette's Resist Duels (if necessary) (Colette's Resist TN = 22)

__3.a. Colette flips a 6 Rams

____3.b.a. Colette Cheats Fate replacing with a 8 Tomes

____3.b.b. Colette Uses a Soulstone to add a 6 Masks

__3.c. Colette's final resist duel total is 21 Tomes & Tomes & Masks

__3.d. Rasputina does not need to meet any Additional Requirements.

__3.e. Colette Declares Blinding Flash Trigger (After Attack Trigger)

__3.f. Colette's does not exceed resist TN

.

4. Apply Duel Results.

__4.a. No Before Damage Triggers apply

__4.b. Rasputina flips a 3 Rams for the Damage Flip (Weak).

____4.b.a Rasputina cannot Cheat Damage Flip as 2 negative flips occured. Colette is dealt 2 points of damage.

__4.c. Apply After Damage Triggers.

____4.c.a. Rasputina's Owerpower Trigger activates, casting Decembers Curse a second time. This time dealing moderate 4 points of damage to Colette for a total of 6 points. Colette uses a soulstone for a damage prevention flip, only preventing 1 point.

.

5. Apply After Attack Triggers.

__5.b. Colette now applies Blinding Flash After Attack Trigger (after suffering 5 points of damage from 2 Decembers Curse spells), giving Rasputina Slow and swaps position with another showgirl.

The same would occur with any melee or ranged combat strike with a trigger that generated another immediate attack , such as the Razorspine Rattlers Fangs attack with the Onslaught Trigger.

[magicpockets]

Hell that's a long post

[Dolomyte]

tl;dr

No, I read it, I need to look up that ruling, I'll post a reply for you in a few minutes.

[Dolomyte]

Example

1. Rasputina targets Colette with Decembers Curse

.

2.Casting Duel

__2.a. Rasputina flips an 11 Masks (Starting total 18 Tomes & Masks)

__2.b. Rasputina spends a soulstone to flip another card, adding a 4 Crows

__2.c. Rasputina's Final Duel Total = 22 Tomes & Masks & Crows

__2.d. Rasputina Declares Overpower Trigger (After Damage Trigger)

__2.e. Rasputina exceeds Casting TN so Spell hits Colette.

.

3. Colette's Resist Duels (if necessary) (Colette's Resist TN = 22)

__3.a. Colette flips a 6 Rams

____3.b.a. Colette Cheats Fate replacing with a 8 Tomes

____3.b.b. Colette Uses a Soulstone to add a 6 Masks

__3.c. Colette's final resist duel total is 21 Tomes & Tomes & Masks

__3.d. Rasputina does not need to meet any Additional Requirements.

__3.e. Colette Declares Blinding Flash Trigger (After Attack Trigger)

__3.f. Colette's does not exceed resist TN

.

4. Apply Duel Results.

__4.a. No Before Damage Triggers apply

__4.b. Rasputina flips a 3 Rams for the Damage Flip (Weak).

____4.b.a Rasputina cannot Cheat Damage Flip as 2 negative flips occured. Colette is dealt 2 points of damage.

__4.c. Apply After Damage Triggers.

____4.c.a. Rasputina's Owerpower Trigger activates, casting Decembers Curse a second time. This time dealing moderate 4 points of damage to Colette for a total of 6 points. Colette uses a soulstone for a damage prevention flip, only preventing 1 point.

.

5. Apply After Attack Triggers.

__5.b. Colette now applies Blinding Flash After Attack Trigger (after suffering 5 points of damage from 2 Decembers Curse spells), giving Rasputina Slow and swaps position with another showgirl.

The same would occur with any melee or ranged combat strike with a trigger that generated another immediate attack , such as the Razorspine Rattlers Fangs attack with the Onslaught Trigger.

I have the sneaking suspicion your the same guy who was arguing in the other threads, and you've just decided to create a new name. I wonder if Wyrd compares IPs. However, your example is wrong. Weird Sketch ruled.

The order would go as follows:

Rasputina casts the Spell and hits and damages Colette.

Rasputina activates the trigger Overpower and Colette activates Blinding Flash.

Colette suffers the Damage.

Now before the second casting of the spell would occur, you have to complete all parts of the initial duel.

Rasputina receives Slow and Colette switches places with a Showgirl. If Colette is still within range for the second Casting of the Spell, then Rasputina may target her. If Colette is not in range, Rasputina may not perform the second Casting.

This is due to ALL the triggers from the initial duel needing to finish before the next duel takes place. So, overpower, onslaught, etc, would not be able to attack colette again unless she was also a valid target.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Dolomyte

[EvilGez]

I have the sneaking suspicion your the same guy who was arguing in the other threads, and you've just decided to create a new name. I wonder if Wyrd compares IPs. However, your example is wrong. Wierd Sketch ruled.

Sory to say I am not, the same guy. Not trying to argue this, but I have a local player who is an absolute lawyer and will go through all this in minute detail, and I need to be able to clearly explain it. The issue is that the ruling contradicts the timing rules, regarding a new action interupting the existing action.

* If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused.

WEiRD sKeTCH's ruling for other triggers and actions apply this rule, but this ruling hasn't. It is also the sequence that the two triggers occur, which is active player first.

The essential part is what is the intended reading for the trigger, as in the original post. Which as ruled makes the trigger occur after the damage has been done and the attacking action concluded.

Blinding Flash- After an attack has resolved, the model that attacked this model receives Slow. Switch this model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18".

If this is the intended reading of the trigger, then my example stands.

If it is intended as

Blinding Flash- After this model is damaged, the model that attacked this model receives Slow. Switch this model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18".

this requires Colette to be damaged to use the trigger, and not just attacked.

[Dolomyte]

Except thats not how it was ruled. Using the wording on the ability "technically" it sounds like it should happen before even damage is dealt. It was ruled that it occurs after damage is dealt. So that is when it applies.

Overpower, etc. start new duals, its not a dual within a dual within a dual. so all the effects must resolve before the second dual takes place, IE blinding flash.

[Calmdown]

Wait, what's happening here? This looks like a direct Errata, not a ruling. The ability clearly says after damage, ie, she takes damage then moves.

[Dolomyte]

DF(:tomes:tomes) A Blinding Flash : The model that attacked this model receives slow. Switch thi model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18".

That is how the ability reads. You can debate till your blue in the face as to whether or not that means before the damage flip, or after, but currently the ruling from Weird Sketch is that the trigger would take place AFTER damage is dealt.

Gez's arguement or question is about triggers like overpower, double take, onslaught, trigger etc etc. He feels that those second attack actions should also take place before A Blinding Flash occurs. Or feels that some rules lawyery dude from his LGS will argue that. IDK.

The problem with that is that again, Weird sketch ruled, that all of the triggers from the initial attack must take place before the secondary attack action generated by the attacking models trigger occurs. In which case blinding flash may or may not move colette out of range and LOS of the secondary attack, so the secondary attack would fail.

Im guessing people are considering the second attacks from trigger happy et al to be the same attack action, which is where the problem is coming from. They are not. Trigger happy "in theory" places an effect on the model triggering it that states "this model may immediately make a second attack action for free targeting the initial model of the attack"

[Calmdown]

DF(:tomes:tomes) A Blinding Flash : The model that attacked this model receives slow. Switch thi model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18".

That is how the ability reads. You can debate till your blue in the face as to whether or not that means before the damage flip, or after, but currently the ruling from Weird Sketch is that the trigger would take place AFTER damage is dealt.

OK, I can see where the guy is coming from because this is completely contrary to the timing rules. All of the precedents so far point to that if a trigger does not give timing, it happens as soon as you pick it (eg, Chompy's All Done buries him before the strike actually connects, so if the enemy had slow to die he would be hitting The Dreamer, etc). Since Df triggers are chosen before damage is dealt, the attacking model should get slow and then the models should switch, but then the original damage flip would still be done against the original target (since there's nothing to illegalise that, either).

So yeh, that ruling makes no sense. If anyone would like to correct my logic (short of "Sketch has errata'd this ability") then please do.

Gez's arguement or question is about triggers like overpower, double take, onslaught, trigger etc etc. He feels that those second attack actions should also take place before A Blinding Flash occurs. Or feels that some rules lawyery dude from his LGS will argue that. IDK.

The problem with that is that again, Weird sketch ruled, that all of the triggers from the initial attack must take place before the secondary attack action generated by the attacking models trigger occurs. In which case blinding flash may or may not move colette out of range and LOS of the secondary attack, so the secondary attack would fail.

Im guessing people are considering the second attacks from trigger happy et al to be the same attack action, which is where the problem is coming from. They are not. Trigger happy "in theory" places an effect on the model triggering it that states "this model may immediately make a second attack action for free targeting the initial model of the attack"

Yeh, obviously not. Attacks do not 'nest' inside eachother. You finish an attack, if you got a relevant trigger, you get a new one. Effects that go off post-attack or on damage etc still go off. Again, it's all in the rulebook for this particular bit.

[EvilGez]

Yes I do have a player who will argue every angle, including the timing sequence, so I am attempting to pre-empt him.

What I am trying to clarify is why this ruling has been made counter to the timing rules. Please read the following quote, which is word for word from the rules manual, regarding timing. It is copied from my second post, for the complete passage.

If we considered the rules for timing (Manual pg 6) as written

Timing

Game effects follow a specific timing sequence.

* Each sentence in an effect's description must be completed before moving to the next sentence.

* If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused.

* Effects end when indicated in their descriptions. If an effect does not list an end point, it ends during the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase (see p.30). Resolve ending effects in the following order:

o At the start of a Step end first.

o During a Step end next.

o End of a Step end last.

o Multiple effects that end within the same Step end simultaneously.

* Players should resolve effects occuring simultaneously in the following order:

o Effects that must occur will occur before effects that may occur.

o Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of the player's models (p.31).

o Any effects that are not controlled by either player....

The first line of the rule states to compete one sentence at a time, to full effect. The second point explictly states that the overpower effect will nest within the initial duel, and occurs before the defending players Trigger, as indicated by the second sub-point of the resolve effect point.

I agree that Colette will receive the damage, in fact I am saying that she should take both hits before being able to use Blinding Flash. And I play Colette.

I just need to able to explain why this case ignores the timing rules, and yet they apply to all others.

Edited September 7, 2011 by EvilGez
Emphasis of rules points

[Dolomyte]

because the rule system is written terribly.

Overpower does not generate a second attack

It generates an effect that allows you to take a second attack.

That effect nests in the initial duel, but the second attack is a seperate action. OR so the ruling goes. I hate to burst your bubble as a new playing group, but sometimes the rules in this game, and the rulings of the rules marshalls, are not necessarily intuitive to the existing rules. print out the ruling, bring it to him, and tell him thats how it plays, or houserule it. I honestly don't know what to tell you.

[Adran]

The ruling made by Sketch clarifys that the damage occurs to Colette, and that she switchs place before overpower occurs.

Does your player need the exact time this occurs?

Personally I have always viewed that the blinding flash should occur when Colette declares the trigger. She should then recieve the results of the dual at her new location.

I know thats not exactly what sketch said, but it has the same result. And the trigger goes off even if the attacker missed.

Can't be more helpful than that.

[EvilGez]

Sorry Dolomyte, but my player won't accept that. Personal experience says this discussion would occur everytime such triggers and abilities would come into effect.

Can one of the rules marshals please comment, as to why the ruling has occured this way. That will put the discussion at a point that he can't argue with.

[i_was_like_you]

Maybe this will help: