Is Ryle OP?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I had discussion with a friend about this. I want to know the communities opinion.

[Stern]

As a guild player, I find he is fantastic for his cost, awesome combat skills and amazing shooting, especially when put in with Lucius, for slingshots and lady J for Cb buffs

I do have friends say he is terrible but they just don't use him right

[Odin1981]

I find him overcosted for what he does. He costs 8 points and is good at killing cheap models. We can take 2 4 point models that are just as good at doing what he does and have more activations.

[knoerzer]

I think he is best in a Lucius crew, but for his cost if I am not using Lucius I would rather play Sam for the same points.

[Dumb Luck]

He's infinitely better in a Hoffman crew, where his brother can remove hisdownsides altogether and make him shoot a silly amount of times.

[Turbodog]

For me, the Jury is not only out for Ryle's cost, but it's a hung jury and we need to get a new one. :/

Part of the problem is that I've personally decided that Hoffman can't "maintain" away to make Ryle a friendly model. I know the prevailing (RAW) opinion on the boards is that he can, but I want to play RiC (Rules in Character) - and after reading the first story in Twisting Fates, I'm fairly certain C. Hoffman can't really control his brother easily.

Another part is that although it is possible for Ryle to do some high damage, the average of what he can do is much, much less. I find I can only rely on him for about 3-5 damage (barring saving some crazy super cheat cards) an activation. 8 points is quite expensive for this. Likewise, I have trouble using his (2) action well.

I realize that the Guild can't hire him, but Lazarus from Book 3 seems to me to be a much superior model to Ryle with a similar schtick. (Wipe out clumped models at range). No experience playing him yet, this is all theoryfaux on my part.

All that said, I think Ryle's Breach Psychosis is uniquely powerful and does help justify his cost a little.

Like I said, jury's out for me yet - but for 1 point more I'd always take a peacekeeper.

[G&TBoy]

When teamed up with his brother and/or Lucius in my opinion he becomes the best eight points a guild player can spend. Great combat and the possibility of very good ranged combat damage.

[Aegis Arising]

As far as I my play has proven, not on high levels of play mind you, most people underestimate Ryle. People recognize Samael the second he hits the table and he has a big fat bulls-eye on his face, which he deserves. But Ryle, people are not intimidated by his damage ratings as much. But when in combination with C. Hoffman I have watched him tear through 1 to 2 large units a in a turn. Reactivated and puppeted by the Hoff. Plus he gives Hoff's crew the much needed ranged threat they need.

[micahwc]

As far as I my play has proven, not on high levels of play mind you, most people underestimate Ryle. People recognize Samael the second he hits the table and he has a big fat bulls-eye on his face, which he deserves. But Ryle, people are not intimidated by his damage ratings as much. But when in combination with C. Hoffman I have watched him tear through 1 to 2 large units a in a turn. Reactivated and puppeted by the Hoff. Plus he gives Hoff's crew the much needed ranged threat they need.

The issue I see with this is that a peace keeper reactivated by Hoff is, in my experience so far, much more deadly than a reactivated Ryle.

I like Ryle a lot, but I have not been very impressed with his performance. It is not bad, but it hasn't been spectacular either. The peacekeeper on the other hand, has become an auto-include in my hoffman lists. To be fair, I have usually taken both of them.

[Cunning]

Ryle rarely does more that 1 or 2 dg per shot in my experience. He has the potential to do a lot more but rarely ever manages it.

[Calmdown]

He's decent for his points, but not OP. I this in terms of gunnery, he does what an 8 point model *should* do. If the guild had more models that could shoot as well as Ryle could (that extra 2" = world of difference, Ranged Expert, etc) whilst still not being a cripple in melee, shooting could actually be a viable tactic in Malifaux.

Obviously he's great because he has pushes and pseudo-I2I etc also, but he's far from OP. I think he's an example of a well-balanced minion, tbh.

[Dark Alleycat]

The problem is,that when he does what he has the possibility of doing,it can pretty much mean a game over for your opponent if things go poorly.

As example,and this is in part what sparked off the discussion. I move up Santiago,Witchling and Convict Gunslinger. The board had the center of it being in a building where the objective was. Ryle gets pushed up and walks,opens fire on santiago. gets his chaingun dialed up to 11 and drops him down to one wound. turn ends. New turn,murphy gets initiative,Blasts Santiago to hell,Convict gunslinger to hell,and the witchling to hell in one activation.

Now granted,Murphy was having insane luck on the flips. But not counting santiago,he annihilated 10 points worth of models in two shots.with a third shot available to take out anything without hard to kill on it. or in this case,finish off another 7 points of my crew,and the entirety of my front line assault forces.

This is a model that cannot be turned against its user like Samuel can. It comes with Armor. it comes with a free push.and it comes with a gun,that if it gets a good flip,can kill any model in the game that doesn't have hard to kill in one shot. And on top of that,it can fire that gun 3 times.

Its downside? Its not treated as a friendly model. and all this for 8 points.

Now,if the extra damage flips were affected by things like Armor,hard to wound,defense flips...then it wouldn't be overpowered. If it had a chance on a flip to instead shoot the closest model instead for its activation...then it wouldn't be overpowered. Give its gun a variation of trigger happy instead of what it has now,so that if it flips a severe,it can make another attack. Or if 8 point models are supposed to be godlike,give Samuel immune to influence if led in a crew by Sonnia (call it overwhelming duty or something) and maybe ranged expert instead of rapid fire.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I was wondering when you would join the conversation Cat. It was Br. Bigglesworth that dropped those two models. Big difference in the game was that you didn't put a flame wall up or hide behind cover as I expected you to do that is what cost you those models. He was going to go for the treasure it is just I saw an opportunity to lay down the fire.

Pros

Possible High damage range output.

Fastest shooter (requires situational placement to utilize) for guild second now to pale rider.

Range 12 gun one of long range compared to average of 8-10

pseudo i2I

Decent melee damage range.

Construct

Ranged expert

Armor

Cons

Low ranged min dmg for guild even with trigger death marshal min can do more damage.

Average cb hard to get straight flip to get severe flip.

Crap defense

Not friendly

Ht 3

Med base or large can't remember

To me he is balanced and is in less lists than Nino or death marshals or even Austringer.

It is Cat's recall of our game that spurned the conversation and I will admit Ryle in one activation won the game and Sonia couldn't hit him while he was in cover. Hard cover made him almost impossible to kill. If Santiago got rapid fire on him he might have died but instead Sonia was activated first and tried to lay waste to him but couldn't.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Also I think Witchling would have survived the barrage since he was in hard cover I was thinking of warmachines cover rules and we got a bad ruling. My bad on that. but what cost you the game was Lady J had a charge vector on you with fast. She was able to lock down the majority of your army and kill Sonia in one go.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

With his Bother Hoffman he gets silly good, and when he gets his triggers off only Hard to Kill will keep him from one shoting his Target.

Had a game where he killed my Mature Nephilim in one shot when he got his damage trigger off, Three Times, on that one shot! Dead Neph, game over after that.

You have to treat him with respect across the board and focus a good amount of attention to taking him down fast. But then again you have to focus on any high point model unless you want to start retreating.:confusedpuppet

Edited September 12, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

True I fear your Mature far more then Ryle. A mature can charge without los, that makes them very scary paired claws and decent cb, but that is also 2 points more for the model, unless you grow one

I just have a hard time with Ryle and truly that was the only time I got a severe pull off a and pulled a second severe.

I don't think I would take him for a ss more.

As for him with Hoff, their synergy is just too much to handle. That is balanced with usually a lower model count and now that we figured we can't do passes based on model counts this truly is a hinderance against a crew like Kirai or Hammelin who have ridiculous model counts.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I guess I should say I do not find Ryle OP but when he works he can deal the most amount of damage of any minion, and even rival many masters. But it does require lots of luck to pull off. Though causing 16 Dg without a Joker is enough to scare many into believing he is broken until you realize the cards needed to pull it off is not going to happen often at all.

I never believed in the 'Pass' rule to begin with and was the one who bursted that bubble. Of course I read the book and had Goblyn13 show me the rules as my Henchman. (Feel that? Yeah that is a Burn. :guns:)

I am special that way.

Just don't hurt me too bad on the table next time.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Dark Alleycat]

If you will remember,Santiago was dead that round before I got to activate him,otherwise I would have very happily blown Ryle straight to construct hell with the 5!!!!! high mask cards I had in my hand. I tried to use Sonnia to burn him because she ws the only vaguely combat effective model I had remaining lol. And Sonnia couldn't have put the flame wall where it would have blocked LOS to my models given how far away she was.That was the first thing I considered.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

If you will remember,Santiago was dead that round before I got to activate him,otherwise I would have very happily blown Ryle straight to construct hell with the 5!!!!! high mask cards I had in my hand. I tried to use Sonnia to burn him because she ws the only vaguely combat effective model I had remaining lol. And Sonnia couldn't have put the flame wall where it would have blocked LOS to my models given how far away she was.That was the first thing I considered.

I know he sucks when he performs well, but I have had many of my models eliminate other models in one shot before they did anything. I even had my Rami take out Mr. B's Judge after he just got done moving him forward with like only a few models being moved in the game.

He just shook his head and said it was a dumb move on his part and continued to rip me up from there on. (He learns not to make the same mistake twice.)

So it happens to us all.

[bossmann321]

I came across Ryle in my last game against hoffmann, and boy did i suffer, I eventualy killed him but with all the tricks hoffmann can pull it took some doing. It seems he works atreat with hoffman, and having been up against him i say it seems he is worth having in a crew, i may try him in my lady J crew.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I remember that game well Murphy. That was so defeating to lose the judge so quickly. I didn't expect to win that one. That game taught me to fear Rami.

Back to Ryle I take him for three things, burning my opponents hand, bullet magnet, and and his speed.

[Dark Alleycat]

Well like i said lol...It was more that he did more then take out a model,he took out my entire offensive line.

And I still maintain that if he were to not have ALL the things he has he wouldnt be overpowered for his point cost. Honestly I would love if he got his extra flip trigger and such switched around to a trigger happy like extra shot.

And it seems every time my opponent fields Ryle,that is what happens..that gigantic gun opens up and mows down my models one right after the other. Given the choice I would rather face Rami any day. When he takes multiple fireballs to the face,he at least has the decency to curl up and die.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Lmao. 2 points difference helps and yea when you face genetic with Hoff and Ryle picture your whole crew become swiss cheese.

[Dark Alleycat]

I faced genetic with Ryle when he was first released. Most of my crew got the swiss cheese treatment then too. In fact...people keep saying "oh ryle never does much damage" and I keep wondering "Why am I never playing these people,rather then the ones that make Ryle into this walking machinegun of giggling death?"

[Stonedog-7]

Any tips for an opponent in coping with Ryle in a Hoffman crew being protected by a guardian?