Another Question regarding Cover

[Gensuke626]

I ran a few searches but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I hope you don't mind that I put up what might be an inane question.

I was running a teaching game last night when a Rule Question came up that I wasn't sure how to answer.

So...if a model is sitting in Obscuring terrain (like, say, a Forest) do their ranged attacks grant soft cover to targets outside of that terrain?

I wasn't sure so I said "I don't think so, but I'll get back to you on that one."

After reading the Rules Manual over and over it seems like you do grant cover if you're sitting in a forest...which seems odd to me.

Am I wrong? Specific quotes from the Rules Manual or a post I missed in my searching would be nice.

Thanks in Advance!

Edited August 31, 2011 by Gensuke626

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, cover is established anytime terrain intersects a line drawn from one base to another. And it is a two way street.

[psychocamel]

That sounds odd... so if you're shooting out of a window the enemy has cover?

[Jonas Albrecht]

That sounds odd... so if you're shooting out of a window the enemy has cover?

RAW, yep.

[Gensuke626]

RAW, yep.

Wow...I...Totally didn't even catch that one...Huh...

Somehow that doesn't make sense to me and I feel like I want to House Rule that one...but...then I don't really want to teach players how to play the game wrong...

Hmm...

[CrazyCarl]

If you're within 1" of a piece of terrain that would provide cover, you can choose to ignore that for purposes of providing soft or hard cover. So if you're peeking out from behind a crate, you can shoot just fine, though unless they're 1" from that same crate they're getting a negative twist on the shot back.

[Hatchethead]

Somewhat off topic, but: The window thing makes perfect sense. The target model has to be within 1" of the terrain in order to claim cover from it. And like CrazyCarl says, if you're within 1" of a piece of terrain that someone is claiming cover from, you're able to ignore any cover it provides. So, if you're within 1" of a window, shooting through it at someone who is able to claim cover from it (meaning he is also within 1" of it), neither of you is able to claim the cover ... as you would expect in that situation.

[Q'iq'el]

Yeah, cover is established anytime terrain intersects a line drawn from one base to another. And it is a two way street.

Isn't there a difference in how Obscuring Terrain and Blocking terrain works?

I'm under impression (no RM at hand right now), that Soft Cover granted by obscuring terrain is granted only to models within that terrain (on its base), while the cover granted by blocking terrain works the way you describe (i.e. model must be within 1" and the terrain must intersect the line of sight, and obviously the ht plays part too).

[Jonas Albrecht]

Isn't there a difference in how Obscuring Terrain and Blocking terrain works?

I'm under impression (no RM at hand right now), that Soft Cover granted by obscuring terrain is granted only to models within that terrain (on its base), while the cover granted by blocking terrain works the way you describe (i.e. model must be within 1" and the terrain must intersect the line of sight, and obviously the ht plays part too).

No RM either, but I cannot recall a rule stating that Obscuring terrain required the model to be in it. Only that it had to be between the attacking model and the defending one.

Makes sense, really. A treeline is going to protect me, even if I'm not in it.

[Justin]

RM right here.

A model within 1" of a terrain piece with the blocking trait may ignore any cover it would grant the target. (So a model firing out of a window at a target across the table would not consider that target in cover due to the window, so long as the firing model is within 1" of said window)

But if LoS is drawn through obscuring terrain at all, the target has soft cover. (No matter which model is in the obscuring terrain) However, to receive cover, the target must be within 1" of the intervening terrain (RM pg. 15, second bullet point under determining LoS) So if model A is inside an obscuring forest base and shoots at model B which is 6" outside of the base, model B does not receive cover. But when B shoots back, A will receive cover. However, if B moves to within 1" of the forest base, B would then receive cover from A.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Justin

[Q'iq'el]

Just a moment, doesn't obscuring terrain block the sight to the other side altogether? I understand terrain Ht is at play here, but forests' Ht tends to be bigger than all the models on the table anyway and bar some hills, towers and such, it would block the LoS completely, wouldn't it?

As far as I remember, the Soft Cover affects only the models that are within obscuring terrain, but there's less than 3" of terrain between them and the acting model - so they are visible despite being in terrain, but receive Soft Cover instead.

I suppose if there was some sort of low height obscuring terrain (a field with ht1 pumpkins for example), it would act as obscuring terrain for the models inside of it and as blocking for the models behind it (within 1"), but it wouldn't affect models outside of it that are being shot from within the terrain...

Edited August 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Jonas Albrecht]

Just a moment, doesn't obscuring terrain block the sight to the other side altogether? I understand terrain Ht is at play here, but forests' Ht tends to be bigger than all the models on the table anyway and bar some hills, towers and such, it would block the LoS completely, wouldn't it?

As far as I remember, the Soft Cover affects only the models that are within obscuring terrain, but there's less than 3" of terrain between them and the acting model - so they are visible despite being in terrain, but receive Soft Cover instead.

I suppose if there was some sort of low height obscuring terrain (a field with ht1 pumpkins for example), it would act as obscuring terrain for the models inside of it and as blocking for the models behind it (within 1"), but it wouldn't affect models outside of it that are being shot from within the terrain...

Obscuring terrain becomes blocking after 3" (6" for models with the Hunter talent). Until then, it just provides soft cover if you can draw any straight base to base line between two models.

[Justin]

Just a moment, doesn't obscuring terrain block the sight to the other side altogether? I understand terrain Ht is at play here, but forests' Ht tends to be bigger than all the models on the table anyway and bar some hills, towers and such, it would block the LoS completely, wouldn't it?

As far as I remember, the Soft Cover affects only the models that are within obscuring terrain, but there's less than 3" of terrain between them and the acting model - so they are visible despite being in terrain, but receive Soft Cover instead.

I suppose if there was some sort of low height obscuring terrain (a field with ht1 pumpkins for example), it would act as obscuring terrain for the models inside of it and as blocking for the models behind it (within 1"), but it wouldn't affect models outside of it that are being shot from within the terrain...

In my example model A was inside the obscuring terrain and, presumably, within 3" of the edge.

If it had to draw LoS through more than 3" (unless it had hunter) LoS would be blocked.

[Q'iq'el]

I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I've always considered soft-cover and hard-cover effects granted by terrain to models fulfilling right conditions to be affected (being within the terrain or 1" from it, not being 3+ times as high as the terrain).

It never occurred to me that such an effect could be granted to a model more than 1" away from obscuring terrain, while it is being shot from within such terrain.

[Calmdown]

I'm not entirely sure what's going on here but it doesn't look right. There seems to be some confusion between line of sight and cover.

Line of sight is obstructed if there is not a 100% clear path between two bases. In and of itself obstructed line of sight does absolutely nothing (that's the bit that mostly confuses new players). If line of sight is obstructed by an object within 1" of the target, the target gets cover from the object - soft if it's an object that is obscuring (such as woods, a hedge, etc) and hard if it's an object with the blocking trait (a wall, etc).

In the case of 'being within a forest', the only way it differs from other cover rules is that a model gets soft cover for being within a forest even if the line of sight does not cross the forest base to the target - ie, if it is standing on the edge of the forest (and as such - you only have to be touching a forest base to gain soft cover, not even be completely within it, depending on your definition of the word on in the rules at the bottom of page 15...it should really say within or completely within, we could do with a ruling on this specific part I think)

There is nothing in the rules that means you get cover because the attacker is within a woods, though. His line of sight will be obscured, yes, but obscured line of sight on its own does nothing. You must always be within 1" of cover to get any cover benefit.

[Justin]

I'm not entirely sure what's going on here but it doesn't look right. There seems to be some confusion between line of sight and cover.

Line of sight is obstructed if there is not a 100% clear path between two bases. In and of itself obstructed line of sight does absolutely nothing (that's the bit that mostly confuses new players). If line of sight is obstructed by an object within 1" of the target, the target gets cover from the object - soft if it's an object that is obscuring (such as woods, a hedge, etc) and hard if it's an object with the blocking trait (a wall, etc).

In the case of 'being within a forest', the only way it differs from other cover rules is that a model gets soft cover for being within a forest even if the line of sight does not cross the forest base to the target - ie, if it is standing on the edge of the forest (and as such - you only have to be touching a forest base to gain soft cover, not even be completely within it, depending on your definition of the word on in the rules at the bottom of page 15...it should really say within or completely within, we could do with a ruling on this specific part I think)

There is nothing in the rules that means you get cover because the attacker is within a woods, though. His line of sight will be obscured, yes, but obscured line of sight on its own does nothing. You must always be within 1" of cover to get any cover benefit.

Hmm...

I don't see how this differs at all from what I said.

And you can get a cover save because the attacker is in woods - your model just has to be within 1" of said woods.

[Calmdown]

Hmm...

I don't see how this differs at all from what I said.

And you can get a cover save because the attacker is in woods - your model just has to be within 1" of said woods.

Correct, but that was not what is being discussed above. What is being discussed above is that woods provide cover if a model's LoS cross them - they don't if the target is further than 1" away. They just obscure, which in and of itself does nothing.

[Justin]

Correct, but that was not what is being discussed above. What is being discussed above is that woods provide cover if a model's LoS cross them - they don't if the target is further than 1" away. They just obscure, which in and of itself does nothing.

Then we agree!

...

Agreeing is boring.

I now disagree.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'm imagining a board with a 1" wide treeline down the center, dividing the board into Side A and Side B. Clearly someone is bad at setting up a terrain board. Regardless, wouldn't someone on Side B always have Soft Cover from ranged Strikes of a Side A model, and vice versa, regardless of distance from the treeline?

[Justin]

I'm imagining a board with a 1" wide treeline down the center, dividing the board into Side A and Side B. Clearly someone is bad at setting up a terrain board. Regardless, wouldn't someone on Side B always have Soft Cover from ranged Strikes of a Side A model, and vice versa, regardless of distance from the treeline?

Actually, they wouldn't have LoS at all.

You only get to draw LoS through 3" of obscuring terrain if you (or your target) are in it. Otherwise, it blocks LoS entirely.

That is, assuming the treeline had a height greater than the models (which they usually do) If it was a 1" wide and Ht 1 piece of obscuring terrain, no, nobody would get cover unless they were within 1" of it. (It's that second bullet point I noted in my first post here)

[Calmdown]

I'm imagining a board with a 1" wide treeline down the center, dividing the board into Side A and Side B. Clearly someone is bad at setting up a terrain board. Regardless, wouldn't someone on Side B always have Soft Cover from ranged Strikes of a Side A model, and vice versa, regardless of distance from the treeline?

If it's a piece of obscuring terrain that they can see eachother through, there is no cover granted at all unless the target is within 1" of the terrain. Partial line of sight or obstructed LoS does literally nothing unless the target is within 1".

[Jonas Albrecht]

If it's a piece of obscuring terrain that they can see eachother through, there is no cover granted at all unless the target is within 1" of the terrain. Partial line of sight or obstructed LoS does literally nothing unless the target is within 1".

Wow that's counter-intuitive.

[Calmdown]

Wow that's counter-intuitive.

Absolutely.

We also played the game for about 3 months without realising that (high enough) obscuring terrain blocked LoS if the target wasn't on the base because of the way the rules are written.

It's all pretty clear when you read it very meticulously but if you read it like a normal person and assume that it's going to be logical, you miss it. It could definitely do with a rewrite.

[Gensuke626]

Thanks folks, especially Lalo and Calm who pointed out like the three or 4 words I missed to make sense of the whole thing.