Let's talk Malifaux

[Q'iq'el]

I disagree that there's too much to learn, though. If the amount to learn was cut down, you'd also cut down on what makes the game fun and interesting - the level of detail. If detail and micromanagement doesn't appeal to someone then this definitely isn't the game for them.

There are rules you learn to play, then the rules you learn to master your crew... then you discover all that effort helps you little, because you must learn at least basics of all the other crews and masters as well.

That's a turn off for some, but perhaps not a problem yet. That will be more and more of a problem as the new models arrive and they have to keep arriving if the Malifaux is to continue to evolve and grow.

Then there are things to track and this is the area where game gets crazy. After a year and a half of playing mostly Lilith, I still forget to trigger Brood when my Tots die. It doesn't come often into play (Tots hardly ever die when other models are around), it is almost impossible to remember with all the other stuff going around. It is plain out intimidating to everyone. I think all the abilities that trigger from conditional effects need a review. We probably should get rid of the most obscure and unused ones and turn them into something, that actually gets used.

I agree these things give Malifaux its flavour and I love the rules and the mechanic myself. At the same time I see casual players less and less interested in the game, because it is getting too complex for them. And it will get even more complex. So where's the middle ground?

Some sort of visual help to track all the auras and effects would be great, for example. Some time ago I attempted to make a paper inserts which stick under bases and show the range of auras and range-triggered abilities. The good part was that no effort was needed to track these and no ability was forgotten. But they were extremely unwieldy, collided with the terrain and, worst of all, were breaking the rules (no pre-measuring). Perhaps some sort of clips attaching to the base edge, showing what auras and effects are active and simply reminding there's something like Brood up and going (beyond my skills).

I use a very elaborate set of self-made tokens now - not just for counters, but to indicate the Fog is up, or Alluring. All sorts of abilities models can activate, which affect the remainder of the turn.

But that doesn't help with abilities activating conditionally.

And don't even get me started about Nekima and her 666 auras to track.

Edit: Actually, to illustrate the concept, here are PDFs with my counters and markers. Perhaps someone else will find them usefull.

They are all made with royalty free public domain clip art found on the net, so I think re-distribution is no problem. The oldest are grayscale as I'd paint them up with acrylic paints after printing. They look great, but the process was too labour-intensive, so as I added new models, I made markers in colour and printed them so.

The markers are master and model specific - they are for Lilith (with Lelu and Lelitu, Doppleganger and Waldgeists, as well as Cherub and all the Nephilim), Nicodem (with markers for Crooked Men, Flesh Constructs, Nurses, Bête Noire, Belles and all the standard minions) and for Colette and the Showgirls.

Linky

Edited August 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[bucket_boy101]

Nice effort Jonas, but I think someone has already mentioned the word balance.

*gets the popcorn*

Also, q'iq'iel, mind going through what the counters are, I'm having difficulty deciphering some of them.

Edited August 23, 2011 by bucket_boy101

[Jonas Albrecht]

Nice effort Jonas, but I think someone has already mentioned the word balance.

*gets the popcorn*

Not three posts in. Though I'd love it if this thread could avoid being about things as ephemeral as Balance.

[Buhallin]

I agree with Lalochezia 100%. It's one thing to tell people - you need the manual and the army book, it's another to tell them you need the manual and all the outdated books because of the models lists.

There are several ways around this - a giant catalogue-o-book bringing 1, 2 and 3 together, PDFs, faction books...

This works great - for exactly one release.

Warmachine faced the same dilemma, and went through much of the same debate. With Mk II they released the Forces books - which are now no longer enough. A year from now it'll be back to about as many as you had to buy before.

There are really only two options: Codex-style books that update entire factions at a time (and leave them to languish for the rest of the cycle) or a spread system that gives everybody something in each release, but then requires people to buy all the books in order to have everything. There's not really much of a middle ground.

And honestly, given the level of complaining about faction balance right now, I shudder to think what it would be like if a faction didn't see an update for two years.

I would like to see them put the rest of the Book 1 models into the PDF stats. The RM largely obsoleted the book, except for what, 5-6 models? If people want to buy it for fluff, great, but ironically the good move of putting the stats into PDF for the v2 means that the few that aren't stand out.

[Q'iq'el]

Nice effort Jonas, but I think someone has already mentioned the word balance.

*gets the popcorn*

Also, q'iq'iel, mind going through what the counters are, I'm having difficulty deciphering some of them.

They are more or less generic - the idea is to mark up important abilities so that you can remember what it is.

So the sand clocks are to mark Slow (obviously multiple marks in Nicodem's batch, as he summons). Pick-axes are the shafted marks for Crooked Men. The spider in a bowl is for poison. Mask tokens are for abilities giving masks to nearby models (both Colette crew and Neverborn have those). Neverborn Masks can also be used for Reclaim Malifaux Scheme. There's also plenty of Body Counters in Nicodem's batch (skulls and hands). I'm sure there are pills for Massive Dose and something for Bedside manners too. Syringes can mark these too. And one of the tokens is to mark when the Bolster Undead is up (syringe, red vial - whatever you fancy ). The guy fighting with a skeleton if for Bête's Mark for Death IIRC.

There's something to mark Alluring in the Lilith box and a token I use for Defensive stance (looks like a girl in martial art pose, or doing ballet, whatever you prefer ). There's also a marker for Cherub's love in there and obviously the wine-glasses with blood (black and white, as this is the batch I painted after printing them out) for blood counters. The empty dress is to mark the models debuffed by Disappear.

Colette batch has Slow marks, Poison marks, Magic Mirrors (disco balls)... There are Beautiful Dress counters, Sword dance counters and I think there is something for Southern Charm too...

Finally there are tokens for Schemes and Strategies - background is crew-specific, so this last group includes 2 wagons and they all have the same background.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[jengland]

Ok here goes. First let me say I am a long time miniatures game player. Having played warhammer fantasy, 40k, chainmail, d&d minis, star wars, warmachine, and many more I am a quite experienced gamer. I like a lot about Malifaux and the setting and miniatures are incredible. The card mechanics with the fate deck and control hand are great and the uniqueness of each model is also very alluring. I agree the game does not need to be dumbed down. My issue with the game is hard to explain. I've only been playing on and off for about a year (more off than on to be honest) but there is something that just doesn't feel right. I often find myself feeling less than satisfied with my game play whether I win or lose. When I lose I can often look back and see things I should have done differently but when I win I often feel like I did so through less than fair means. I out summoned my opponent by so much they had no chance or I used some no resistable ability to damage my opponent over and over or something like that. I like the game tremendously and I was just wondering if this is just me or if others are having these same issues. Thanks for your input.

[dgraz]

Not three posts in. Though I'd love it if this thread could avoid being about things as ephemeral as Balance.

That's why I was hoping someone would pick up and run with my post about when you create your crew. IMO, it crushes the balance problem.

As far as all the books and prices and needing this or that....

Every wargame out there that has grown for a few years has this problem. You can't say to release all of the info in PDF form - if they give everything away, how do they make money? Then the company folds and we have no more Mali. I can't speak for everywhere, but my LGS has a huge Flames of War following - and how many books does that game have? Its so many that I can't even be bothered to count at this point.

Even if you buy all of the books and every single model in a given faction (including multiples of models that you might use more of) it costs you between four and five hundred (US) -What does that get you in GW or PP? Half of what you need if you're lucky. And people still start up those games every day.

It really irks me when people bring up price as a bad part of this game. It is still one of the cheapest games out there, and Wyrd has really bent over backwards to keep the game as cost effective as possible.

I could buy every Mali model there is and not be spending much more than I did for ONE GW Fantasy army or ONE PP Hordes army.

Finally, not for nothing, but you can still spend 100 bucks on this game and get a ton of enjoyment out of it. The examples of having to buy all the books and stuff is just wrong. If you want to start a new game and just have some fun, $50 still gets you there in this game and $100 has you golden.

If you want to be competitive, then you buy all the books - but if you want to be competitive in any game you're going to spend a helluva lot more than you do here.

[Jonas Albrecht]

That's why I was hoping someone would pick up and run with my post about when you create your crew. IMO, it crushes the balance problem.

To me, that's part of the issue. I have zero interest in lugging the entire Guild (or any other faction) to a tournament. Especially not when I find 50% of my chosen faction's Masters, and its Henchman, brutally unfun to play. That the game assumes you have the resources and the desire to play each Master is not a feature to me. It's a bug.

[jengland]

To me, that's part of the issue. I have zero interest in lugging the entire Guild (or any other faction) to a tournament. Especially not when I find 50% of my chosen faction's Masters, and its Henchman, brutally unfun to play. That the game assumes you have the resources and the desire to play each Master is not a feature to me. It's a bug.

I have to agree with Jonas on this one. I shouldn't have to buy a whole faction to have all the scenarios covered.

[Dolomyte]

And to further the point, even if you do have all the faction models, you dont know what your opponent is going to be using, so while your faction may have a counter, it could possibly not make it into your list based on the strategy.

[Buhallin]

I have to agree with Jonas on this one. I shouldn't have to buy a whole faction to have all the scenarios covered.

Well, then it's a good thing that you don't have to do that

Strategies and schemes break down into a few categories. You need to be able to cover those categories. That doesn't require a whole faction.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Well, then it's a good thing that you don't have to do that

Strategies and schemes break down into a few categories. You need to be able to cover those categories. That doesn't require a whole faction.

Except that we're talking about how people keep bringing up that the game is balanced per faction, and that the game assumes you're going to select from the entire pool of models available to that faction.

[Q'iq'el]

Yeah, but that "entire pool" is divided into subsections. You don't have to get everything. Sometimes you can't take everything.

Even Nicodem, who is the most model-inensive master when it comes to that, doesn't use entire Resurrectionists range.

[Buhallin]

Except that we're talking about how people keep bringing up that the game is balanced per faction, and that the game assumes you're going to select from the entire pool of models available to that faction.

Well, in the broad sense, you do select from the entire pool of models - you make a first cut when you decide what to purchase, and then a per-game cut when you select your crew each time. That's not the same as having the entire pool available each game, and I don't think that anyone's ever actually argued that the faction balance only works if you have constant access to the entire line of models.

Many models will overlap purpose and functionality. Nino and Hans fill similar roles. I'm relatively unlikely to own both, assuming I only play Guild. That doesn't mean the game is unbalanced just because I don't have Hans available.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah' date=' but that "entire pool" is divided into subsections. You don't have to get everything. Sometimes you can't take everything. [/quote']

As I see it, a literal interpretation of the set up rules means that I am choosing my Master as a reaction to the Strategy drawn.

Do I need to consider Sonnia Criid and Lady Justice as options if my Faction is Guild, or can I just field C. Hoffman or Perdita Ortega without undermining the game's assumptions?

EDIT: And it's my fault for not being clearer. I'm not speaking about minions, but Masters.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[Odin1981]

As I see it, a literal interpretation of the set up rules means that I am choosing my Master as a reaction to the Strategy drawn.

Do I need to consider Sonnia Criid and Lady Justice as options if my Faction is Guild, or can I just field C. Hoffman or Perdita Ortega without undermining the game's assumptions?

I think it would ultimatly come down to what you "like" (being very subjective here) and what you feel like buying in regards to having a balanced faction of represenitive models. How you play is going to vary greatly in how wide a representation of model figures for a faction.

[Buhallin]

As I see it, a literal interpretation of the set up rules means that I am choosing my Master as a reaction to the Strategy drawn.

Do I need to consider Sonnia Criid and Lady Justice as options if my Faction is Guild, or can I just field C. Hoffman or Perdita Ortega without undermining the game's assumptions?

I think you may be trying to approach this from a far too locked-in perspective.

Let's consider, say, Escape and Survive. "The game" doesn't consider there a right master for that - there's a strategy, and you need to be able to accomplish it. That could mean Hoffman, with a lot of very tough models. It could mean Perdita leading other fast models and running away a lot. It could mean killing them before they kill you.

I can think of very few cases where a faction only has one approach, and hence once Master, to deal with a specific strategy. There may be BETTER options, but with a few exceptions of specific matchups with specific strategies, I don't think it's mandatory.

If you only want to run one master for a faction, then yes - you're going to fall into those bad matchups more often. But two covers the vast majority of the bases, and I run 3 for each of my main factions and have never found myself feeling shorted or unable to respond.

[jengland]

I think it would ultimatly come down to what you "like" (being very subjective here) and what you feel like buying in regards to having a balanced faction of represenitive models. How you play is going to vary greatly in how wide a representation of model figures for a faction.

I'm not sure what you like will hold up in a competitive atmosphere. I like the Gremlins specifically Somer Teeth alot and let's face it he has some terrible matchups. I'm not interested in Leveticus or Hamelin in the least so what am I to do besides take my beatings?

[Odin1981]

What I meant to say is what type of player are you? Because the answer will change depending on how a person would answer said question.

[jengland]

What I meant to say is what type of player are you? Because the answer will change depending on how a person would answer said question.

What do you mean by what type of player? Causual vs competitive or what?

[Jonas Albrecht]

Those out there who can enjoy three out of four of a Faction's Masters are a lucky people.

But yes, I think we actually have the same outlook. The wider the Master selection, the more able you're going to be.

[Buhallin]

I'm not sure what you like will hold up in a competitive atmosphere. I like the Gremlins specifically Somer Teeth alot and let's face it he has some terrible matchups. I'm not interested in Leveticus or Hamelin in the least so what am I to do besides take my beatings?

Outcasts probably suffer from this worse than most.

And as much as I hate to say it... Maybe Malifaux just isn't the right game for you at that point. Sometimes, games just are what they are - if I went into Warmachine with a dislike of big, named heroes and asked what I could do to be competitive without using a warcaster, the response would not be accommodating to my particular needs.

If you really don't like anything other than Som'er - the Viks, Von Schill, Ophelia - then you're certainly going to be facing an uphill climb. There really isn't any other good answer.

[Buhallin]

But yes, I think we actually have the same outlook. The wider the Master selection, the more able you're going to be.

With the important caveat that you reach diminishing returns very quickly. I honestly think past two you're looking at improvements in niche specialization or just more variety.

[jengland]

Outcasts probably suffer from this worse than most.

And as much as I hate to say it... Maybe Malifaux just isn't the right game for you at that point. Sometimes, games just are what they are - if I went into Warmachine with a dislike of big, named heroes and asked what I could do to be competitive without using a warcaster, the response would not be accommodating to my particular needs.

If you really don't like anything other than Som'er - the Viks, Von Schill, Ophelia - then you're certainly going to be facing an uphill climb. There really isn't any other good answer.

Well I appreciate your honesty about the matter and not trying convince me Somer can do it all or something like that. Lol. I'm not ready to jump ship. I still like the game a lot and realize every system has some growing pains. I do have Ophelia who fills in a lot of gaps and the Vikis look interesting. I was just voicing an opinion about what bugged me about the game. I also realize too that as the game grows it is likely that models will be made to fill gaps in for all masters so you can play your favorite master regardless of the scenario.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'm gonna switch gears for a moment.

The Avatars, we're told, are not more powerful versions of the Masters, just different versions. If this is the case, why the swap mechanic, and not say, just field them as Epic versions. I'm afraid I don't see what the minigame has to offer players.