On Ramos

[Vlad the Mad]

WARNING: Lots of text...

Ever since starting Malifaux more than a year ago I wanted to play Ramos. However, as he was the only master from the faction that appealed to me I decided to leave him for later. I've however been following most of the threads concerning Ramos in this section, and now that I've finally got the miniatures I have a few thoughts and questions. I have never played with or against Ramos or any of his crew yet, so everything here is pretty much pure Theoryfaux going through my head.

So, judging by all the other threads going around, Ramos is considered somewhat sub-par, or to put it in a nicer way, "a challenge". This seems to stem mostly from the following:

- He's slow, and one of his main abilities make him want to move even less (Salvage under Fire).

- He has 10 Wd and Armor +2, but with Df 2 is pretty easy to kill. This gets someone better if his totems casts Arcing Screen, but Df 4 is really not going to make him any more survivable.

- His spells require tome suit cards, so you can either use the Mobile Toolkit to get the tomes, or pray that you get enough of them every round to keep Ramos running. Using Rusty Alice will improve your chances of getting those tomes, at the cost of 10 SS though.

- His mainstay minion, the Steampunk Arachnid isn't actually that bad. If only it wasn't insignificant... the ability to make a Swarm makes this somewhat more bearable.

Then there are some considerations about his crew.

- The eternal "Brass Arachnid VS Mobile Toolkit" debate - I do prefer Reactivate, but somehow it seems that using the Brass Arachnid requires Alyce to secure the necessary tomes.

- Lack of good minions in the 4-8SS range. At 3SS we have the SPAs, over 9SS we have Arachnid Swarms, the Steamborg*, Joss**, Alyce, Kaeris, maybe even the Duet. In between we have Johan, but he is only really worth his points next to Ramos or Joss. I hope the Soulstone Miner, Large Arachnid and Gunsmith will help alleviate this a bit.

* Most threads insist that the Steamborg is a glass cannon, but has "decent" melee potential. In several post people were even saying that a Stoked Steamborg can kill anything. While I agree with this, is there something a non-Stoked Steamborg cannot kill in one full activation (assuming already in melee range) besides the likes of Lilith/Perdita in defensive stance with 4+ soulstones?!? Also, with Df 4 (actually not bad for a 50mm Ht3 model), Armor +1 and Steam Cloud he seems survivable enough on paper. I think his perceived low survivability stems from the fact that you opponent will focus his resources on him as he will probably be the primary threat.

** Someone mentioned that in order to get Power Counters early on, I should charge Joss in the first round (activate -> +1 counter, charge -> +1 counter), as he will still be able to keep up with the slower Ramos. What do I have him charge if there are no opponents in LoS? My own models?

Basically all of this thinking started as I was trying to make a 25SS crew. I just couldn't figure what to take! My initial thoughts were either Alyce+Brass Arachnid+SPAs or 'Borg/Joss+Mobile Toolkit+SPAs, but somehow it seemed lacking something, not really sure what.

I'd like to ask all the other Ramos players to share some insights on how you play Ramos, especially focusing on the following:

- Strategies: which are hard to accomplish, which are easy, and how do you cope (assuming you have no option to choose another master).

- Opponents: Tough match-ups and easy ones, and how do you cope with them as well.

- The Art of Spiders: How do you get the most out of the SPAs and Swarms? Tips and tricks are welcome.

- Your ready-to-go 25SS crews. Why and how do you play them?

It's been a long post, but I'm looking forward to hearing your experiences. I'll be getting my Ramos painted and battle-ready in the meantime.

[Aegis Arising]

First off, I just purchased Ramos and played him for the first time today. That said, I have a fair amount of experience with Malifaux and have played against or with most of the possible crews.

In defense of Ramos, I found his ability to summon one or more Electrical Creations per turn significant, especially with the help of a Mobile Toolkit. They do 1 wd automatically when they move into base contact for the first time, then for a single action they can deal 3 dg within 2 inches... The beauty is that there is no resist for the 3 dg. Now if you summon two of these bad boys you can deal 8 dg to non-armored units...

The Steamborg Executioner I have used in my Hoffman crew and also with Ramos. I love this model. While he doesn't have the staying power of the Peacekeeper, his offensive abilities are spectacular. One thing that I personally love is his ability to bypass defensive walls to get to more important targets. You can turn a (1) melee attack into a 11 inch charge behind your enemy's line. Which would take up your melee expert action and allow you to flurry whichever model you charged... Deadly.

Anyways here is a little insight from my experience. As far as Strategies and Schemes, I like the Arcanist only scheme Sabotage. Especially if your strategy requires you to move over to the other side of the board.

Good Luck.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I maintain that Stoke is a trap. At a cast of 16tometome, you're looking at four cards in the entire game it can use to succeed at the spell. Furthermore, those cards are ones you want to use on Ramos' own spells as well.

[Calmdown]

I wont comment on Ramos himself as I haven't played him, but I will comment that you seem to be falling into the standard Arcanist trap of trying to play him with models that only go with him for 'fluff' reasons. There's absolutely no reason to limit yourself to Steamborg, Joss, SPAs, etc when you have tons of other great Arcanist choices (Kaeris, Coryphee, Gunsmiths) and Merc choices (Convict Gunslinger, Desperate Mercenaries) that can fill your minion slots much more effectively than constructs alone do. I've had a lot of success running 2x Gunsmith + Convict Gunslinger for a very solid ranged base that loses almost no effectiveness in melee.

If you do want to stick to constructs and play for fluff value, then consider using Coryphee Duet, Mechanical Rider, SPAs, and Steamborg. I agree with you that Steamborg's fragility is perceived as much as actual; but he's a heavy hitter, not a tank, and needs protection. The best way to do this is to make sure your opponent has multiple things to think about, by giving him some fast moving buddies in the Duet, Rider, or other models than can support him.

I'll also mention two minions from book 2 that are almost always ignored or overlooked, Large Steampunk Arachnid and Soulstone Miner, that are both potentially good, reliable melee beatsticks (and happen to be constructs, too). I've never layed with either, but I've had my eye on both for a long time as they look pretty solid. The LSPA in particular is tough for a 5 point model, has decent damage, and good maneuverability via arachnid.

On Mobile Toolkit vs Brass Arachnid - there really shouldnt be any debate there. Making all your spells autocast and trigger Surge blows a small chance of reactivate out of the water, and that's before we even get on to how good controlled detonation is.

FWIW, if I was to start Ramos I'd start with something like this:

Ramos

Mobile Toolkit

Mechanical Rider

2x Coryphee

3x Steampunk Arachnid

Edited August 16, 2011 by Calmdown

[Vlad the Mad]

I maintain that Stoke is a trap. At a cast of 16tometome, you're looking at four cards in the entire game it can use to succeed at the spell. Furthermore, those cards are ones you want to use on Ramos' own spells as well.

There might be some truth in this, but I guess a few games will tell more. Reactivating does seem worth one of those four rare cards though.

I wont comment on Ramos himself as I haven't played him, but I will comment that you seem to be falling into the standard Arcanist trap of trying to play him with models that only go with him for 'fluff' reasons.

Your partially right, as I prefer playing with models that have been released by Wyrd (too lazy to look for good proxies), but I am not really restricting myself to the "proprietary" minions. Duet, Convict Gunslinger are good choices, and the Kaeris box will surely bring some good options, but also some new questions. If I don't stick to the "theme", why not just use Kaeris as a master instead? What does Ramos bring to this crews and how does he synergize?

[Jonas Albrecht]

Ramos doesn't really synergize. He's very much a Book 1 Master, in that he is a collection of abilities rather than Master designed with a specific playstyle.

There might be some truth in this, but I guess a few games will tell more. Reactivating does seem worth one of those four rare cards though.

But while you can go an entire game without getting reactivate, the Mobile Toolkit offers a heal, a tome, and in the case of double tome spells, a better casting ability.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[Calmdown]

If I don't stick to the "theme", why not just use Kaeris as a master instead? What does Ramos bring to this crews and how does he synergize?

If you're playing Ramos you're kind of playing him because you want to play him, rather than because he's particularly good.

Whether you stick to fluff because of that or at least attempt to make him good is up to you

[HopelessHeretic]

A couple quick things before I start.

@Aegis electrical creations are unique so you can only have one out at a time. But to be fair you could have ment blow one up have Ramos activate and summon another one.

SPAs are steampunk abominations just refer to steampunk arachnids as spiders.

Alright now that that is done we can proceed. Ramos has been my master ever since I started playing malifaux and he is far from sub par in fact I feel that people who say this simply do not understand him but that's not their fault afterall he is quite the enigmatic guy.

As far as where I fall on the whole which totem is best argument I fall firmly on the brass arachnid side of the fence. I feel that the mobile toolkit is a set of training wheels that all Ramos players should start with and eventually ween them selves off of. It makes Ramos much easier to play but significantly reduces the shenanigans he can pull off. Yes the mobile toolkit gives a tome and a heal ands controlled detonation, but has an almost useless cast of three making its actual application as a totem infeasible and it is super easy to lose since it has easy to wound. Any good guild player will kill it the second it is in range of nino. And all the other factions have a way to kill it before turn three.

Anyway moving on. Ramos in the power scale falls right in the middle. He isn't pandora. But he id moving up with the new releases coming out. His avatar form fixes what I have perceived as being his biggest weakness; getting locked in melee with a model who is great at melee. Your liliths and lady js. Because ifthat happens you just go avatar and pneumatic tip them with df five or electrocute. Also with the large spiders coming out soon he will get another power boost since the large spiders are coming out on 50mm bases instead of 40mm.

Reactive is so good for spiders under the current rules. If they start as a swarm and gain reactive they get to walk twice maybe use their melee master walk again melee master then scatter they each gain reactivate but are slow. That is another 3 ap with two more zero actions; insane. I also like the joss Alyce brass and spiders list where joss Ramos and the spiders all get to reactive in one turn.

Ok this is turning into a rant so I will stop plus my phone is not the ideal way to do this.

-Heretic

Edited August 16, 2011 by HopelessHeretic

[jdomin2]

Don't forget that joss can reactivate himself with no assistance, helping with objectives. I've ran Rusty Alyce + 6 spiders and won with it.

I prefer to play ramos forward as much as he can. Trick is to distract your opponent from just trying to engage him in melee as quick as possible (probably their best choice 90% of the time).

[Calmdown]

I prefer to play ramos forward as much as he can. Trick is to distract your opponent from just trying to engage him in melee as quick as possible (probably their best choice 90% of the time).

Strategies based on your opponent being bad are not generally a very good idea

[Vlad the Mad]

As far as where I fall on the whole which totem is best argument I fall firmly on the brass arachnid side of the fence. I feel that the mobile toolkit is a set of training wheels that all Ramos players should start with and eventually ween them selves off of. It makes Ramos much easier to play but significantly reduces the shenanigans he can pull off.

Care to elaborate on a bit more on the shenanings? The spider swarm reactivation does allow for a lot of movement. Any other tips or tricks?

If you're playing Ramos you're kind of playing him because you want to play him, rather than because he's particularly good.

Whether you stick to fluff because of that or at least attempt to make him good is up to you

I guess you're right - I'll probably try to stick to the "fluff" as much as possible (hoping the remaining minions from Rising Powers get released soon), but I might stray from that path if I cannot get any good games with him ("good games" doesn't necessarily mean wins, but at least not playing completely hopeless games all the time). I do plan on getting the Duet anyway though, as it really adds a good (albeit expensive) agile element to the crew.

At the moment, I think I'll go with Alyce + 4x Spiders + Brass Arachnid for starters, and see where it takes me from there.

[Sliver Chocobo]

What runing a gamin up, detonate it, use it's scrap counter to make a spider and then detonate that. 6Dg there

[LoboStele]

What runing a gamin up, detonate it, use it's scrap counter to make a spider and then detonate that. 6Dg there

First of all, pretty sure Controlled Detonation SACRIFICES, not KILLS. Secondly, things like Shatter don't go off when you use Controlled Detonation.

Now, you could sort of do something similar by using Combat Mechanic. That one KILLS the target Construct. So it would trigger Shatter, AND drop a Scrap counter.

So, I like using Combat Mechanic with a 3pt Spider, heal Ramos or whatever other Construct you want, then use the (0) to summon a new one.

Also with the large spiders coming out soon he will get another power boost since the large spiders are coming out on 50mm bases instead of 40mm.

Oh? Really? Where did you hear that? I saw the model in the case at GenCon, and I don't remember thinking it was on a 50mm. I may have just not noticed it though. 50mm for 5 points would certainly be awesome.

[ratch]

i am in the Same Boat Vlad. i however, chose Ramos to begin with. and i have realised i have been playing him bad lol. I have the box set + Swarm and Brass Arachnid. i am ordering Joss shortly. i am also wanting to see what the Gunsmith, Large Arachnid, Soulstone Miner and Mechanical Rider can do.

my strategy is hold Ramos Back, make babies, and wait for them to come to mee while moving my swarms and Steamborg in for the kill. i like to hold onto small Tomes (1-5) when the enemy get close, for Counterspell.

my primary opponent is a Colette Box + Corphys i have been wondering about strats with Ramos. and this thread is helping. can someone eleaborate on the Swarm Trick?

I prefer the Construct/Fluff style of play with him. and i don't intend on getting anything outside my Faction. for this army anyways... i am thinking of a second army possibly a different faction.

[Tograth]

controlled detonation kills a model, generating a Rg2 pulse doing damage 2. it doesnt allow other pulses to be generated, so gamin cannot shatter as well.

It *does* mean you can kill something, summon a spider off the scrap counter, and hten kill the spider again, followed by a spell.

I really liked the extra cards with Alyce, but below 30SS games she costs too much versus the rest of your crew.

a 30SS list i like is 2 spiders, Joss, the executioner, the toolkit and ramos. ramos goes spider factory, while joss and the executioner run up with the spiders latching on to their target.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Tograth

[ratch]

controlled detonation kills a model, generating a Rg2 pulse doing damage 2. it doesnt allow other pulses to be generated, so gamin cannot shatter as well.

It *does* mean you can kill something, summon a spider off the scrap counter, and hten kill the spider again, followed by a spell.

I really liked the extra cards with Alyce, but below 30SS games she costs too much versus the rest of your crew.

a 30SS list i like is 2 spiders, Joss, the executioner, the toolkit and ramos. ramos goes spider factory, while joss and the executioner run up with the spiders latching on to their target.

Does the spider spell not require you to be carrying the Scrap counter? that has been my assumption. or can i use Counters within the range of the spell? that would make baby making so much faster/easier.

[LoboStele]

Does the spider spell not require you to be carrying the Scrap counter? that has been my assumption. or can i use Counters within the range of the spell? that would make baby making so much faster/easier.

I've always assumed it is within range of the spell. Otherwise, the range requirement on the spell does absolutely nothing at all.

[bucket_boy101]

Check the v2 card, the spell now says "Discard one Scrap Counter within 6"." and its range is C.

[HopelessHeretic]

Ramos shenanigans...let's see. Before I go in to this something to understand about Ramos is that he is fiddlely and his positioning game is much more important than it initially appears. He really excels at drying up situations that force the enemy to make hard choices and really both decisions are wrong.

You could burnout a spider and after you take all the activations with it (go twice with the swarm scatter twice with each spider but leave them in combat with whatever you attacked) move the brass up then next turn cast arcing screen. Now they have the tough decision of hitting your one wound arachnids and taking two wounds or shooting into comat and having to hit df 9 spiders.

-Heretic

[Turbodog]

Okay, so I play Hoffman and not Ramos. But I do have a soft spot for the guy (probably saved my brother's life afterall...)

So this is all theoryfaux. I'm curious if it would work. It does take a LOT of "perfect/lucky" setup to pull off.

Need: Arachnid Swarm in melee, Brass Arachnid, Ramos

Could you:

Activate Brass Arachnid: Use to cast reactivate on Arach Swarm via Stoke and then do what it wants (I think casting Ramos' defensive shield would be superb here)

Activate Arachnid Swarm. Use 2 melee master attacks. Use 1 action to Scatter ending up with 3 Steampunk Arachnids in melee with 1 AP each and Reactivate

Activate Arachnid. Use 0 action to latch on and 1 AP to strike.

Reactivate same Arachnid. use 0 action to latch on (now -4 Df because Latch on is cumulative) and make 2 strikes

Repeat for above two activations for second arachnid...possibly on new target

Activate Ramos. Detonate 1st Arachnid doing damage. Summon fresh Arachnid with counter. (do whatever with final 2 AP)

Activate fresh arachnid to combine with #2 and #3 to from a new Steampunk Arachnid Swarm. This swarm will have 0 AP, +2 melee master, and reactivate (from #3).

Activate Steampunk Arachnid Swarm. Use 0 action to self heal (since likely took a little damage from detonation). Make 2 melee master attacks.

Reactivate Steampunk Arachnid Swarm. Melee master plus two fresh attacks.

Let's see, um...that's 3 models, 10 activations, 14 attacks (or more...), and 1 detonation so far for that turn.

So anyway, I don't play Ramos...Can you do this with him? (Also not saying it's easy...)

[tadaka]

The swarm would not be able to reactivate because the all ready reactivated effect from thebcombining models would carry over to the new swarm

[HopelessHeretic]

Not really sure what tadaka is trying to say but let me chime in. You can under the current rules in the rules manual stoke a swarm use two general ap use its 2 melee master strikes. Then reactive use one general ap for what ever use your melee master then scatter. The three arachnids can each take their slow activation then a full reactivate. Ramos can controlled detonation one and summon it back but thatt spider can not recreate the swarm with the remaining spiders.

This is because scatter is worded "The Steampunk Arachnids may not swarm together this turn." for this to be leagal it would have to be worded "The Steampunk Arachnids may not take the swarm together action this turn"

The wording essentially means that they may take no part in a swarm together during this turn because you could chain this twice if you took Alyce and Ramos.

-Heretic

Ps @Lobo the Large spider was at gencon and it was on a 50mm ask sketch and he confirmed that they are going to a fifty.

[Turbodog]

Ah, thought it was a stretch. Afterall, I don't play Ramos.

If I'm understanding HH, the Swarm can reactivate then split and the individual spiders created get to take reactivates too. I'm a little surprised by this. I don't know why, but I thought that if the Swarm used reactivate for itself, that the individual spiders wouldn't have access to it when they were created (since it got used). Hence my making the scatter prior to using reactivate.

Apparently this is not the case?

[ratch]

now thats amazing that Reactivate carries over to the Arachs after you skatter. i really need to re-read the rules and strat with Ramos >.>;

my buddy and i went on a Malifaux Highadous cus we started running WarMachine Tourneys at his Games Shop since at the time of the Tourney starts we had been on a Warmachine Highadous it kinda made since lol. we picked up Malifaux last saturday and realized after the game we were completely lost and needed to reread the book lol

ANYWYAS. he only has a Collette(SP?) box and Corphys so our games are 28SS. which means i Run Ramos, Steamborg, swarm, 2 Arachs and Brass Arach. which gives me 27SS worth. gonna be running Joss after i order him and he will replace Swarm. thinking of 2 Large Arachs to replace the Small Arachs. and then once my opponent gets a bigger army i will fill in with Arachs/swarm.

[HopelessHeretic]

The limiting factors for reactivate are that the same model cannot reactivate more than one and cannot receive reactivate more than once. But since the action scatter sacrifices the swarm and summons three new spiders into base contact it does not violate any of these rules.

-Heretic