My dreamer's alpha strike

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree that the Dreamer is beatable, 100%, what I don't particularly like about it is when you fight the Dreamer the game is really all about his to lose.

Against the Dreamer, except in very few situations, he controls the whole tempo of the game. He chooses if there will be engagement, where it will be, and who it is with. Now if the Dreamer messes up these steps, choses to engage or run incorrectly, choses the wrong location to strike, or engages the wrong models he can be beaten, but you NEED the Dreamer to make the mistake and be able to capitalize on it. If the Dreamer makes no mistakes, or you are not positioned correctly to take advantage of the mistake when it comes you will not win. Period. You might not lose, but you won't win.

Now to a lesser extent this argument could be made for every master in Malifaux, but the Dreamer exacerbates the issue. The main reason for this is his and his crews TOTAL maneuverability advantage over just about every crew in the game, and how that synergizes with his multiple-master state.

These factors not only give a very strong, solid, and offensive crew, but one that is purpose designed from a denial stand point as well. The Dreamer's crew can manipulate the VP conditions of the game better than any other master in the game, and what I mean by that is this. By his very nature the Dreamer can without even trying deny you, or at least make it especially difficult to achieve a good portion of the Schemes and Strategies in the book.

Let's look at them and just see what I'm talking about.

Strategies:

A Line in the Sand: Very easy to achieve and Deny for the same Reason. Dreamer can move his entire crew up in one activation and drop them out in a defensive formation that puts all 3 center markers in melee range of his crew while retaining the ability to sweep out with Chompy to either side if one of the side counters is threatened. You must now kill most or all of the Dreamer's crew to be able to achieve your goal as if he choses to the Dreamer will be there with his whole crew before you.

Claim Jump: Possibly one the Dreamer doesn't have the edge on. However it is still possible for him to play an almost totally non interactive game, other than sniping models along your crew's edges with Chompy and then dumping his whole crew out thus most likely Denying you your points from this strat.

Contain Power: As a Multi-model Master you must kill both Chompy and the Dreamer in order to achieve any points, and your master must kill them for maximum points. Need I say more on how difficult this is to achieve given the Defenses on one model, the usual inaccessibility to attack one model has, and the SS pool they come in with?

Deliver a Message: . . . Try to pin down the dreamer long enough for your model to make the (2) interact action to deliver your message.

Destroy the Evidence: Again one the Dreamer is not especially tailored for to deny you, but still can easily move his entire crew effortlessly to any counter he desires to protect.

Distract: Again with the Dreamer's maneuverability and range in one activation...If he doesn't want you to have this you won't. Killing them both, or at the very least killing the Dreamer is the only way to realistically hope to complete this Strategy, and given his targeting restrictions, and immunity to pulses, auras, and blasts, Spirit characteristic, and ability to use the 6-8 SS a Dreamer player brings in with him...

Escape and Survive: Again not one the Dreamer is specifically geared towards denying you. He has the mobility that your crew will not be able to hide from him and solid Melee models, but you still have a chance for this one.

Plant Evidence: See points about A line in the Sand.

Reconnoiter: You must divide up your Crew for this. The Dreamer loves crews that divide up as much as he loves crews that stay together. He will pick off your individual models with Chompy or whole crew strikes and still mantain the mobility and lethality to move to each pairing and they spread out no matter where there go.

Slaughter: Three Stitched Together. Enough said.

Supply Wagon: The Dreamer can fly in and drop his entire crew around your wagon on turn 1. He might not be able to destroy it,...maybe, but it will not be going anywhere.

Treasure Hunt: Lilitu + Being able to drop his entire crew around the marker on turn one requiring you to burn time fighting through them on the way in and out. Your movement on the way out will be limited by 4" each action on the way back.

Turfwar: Dreamer has the ability to Alpha strike the largest concentration of your models with his entire crew on turn one on your side of the board. Even if he doesn't kill them he can hold them there with all his crew while a few of yours might be able to sneak across.

SCHEMES:

Assassinate: You must kill Chompy and the Dreamer to get any points for this scheme. See above for how difficult this is.

Bodyguard: Not especially geared to deny you this, but likely considering The Dreamer's movement and Chompy's lethality.

Exterminate: The dreamer can chose to just not bring one model with the selected characteristic into play during the game, conversly it is also possible the only shared characteristic his crew might posses is nightmare, thus you will need to kill every model he has except The Dreamer ( this includes Chompy bits in your kill list) to achieve any points.

Eye For an Eye: Not especially geared to deny you points, but one of the harder schemes to accomplish, and with how lethal a dreamer crew is...

Frame for Murder: Not especially geared to deny you these points.

Grudge: The Dreamer can choose to just not bring into play the grudged model.

Hold Out: Dreamer's mobility and speed of his crew means if he wants a model in your deployment zone, you can't stop him.

Kill Protegee: The Dreamer can choose to just not bring into play the targeted model.

Stake a claim: Not especially geared to deny you these VP, but has a strong possibility to.

Steal Relic: Your model must catch-up to the Deamer, and if the Dreamer is out (very likely) you must win a WP > Wp duel against a Master with 8WP and the ability to use SS. If the Dreamer leaves Chompy out accidently you have a shot at this one, but selecting this scheme will ensure Chompy is not ever left out.

So even if we disregard that the Dreamer's in game abilities are too strong, the way the current crop of Schemes and Strategies are set up give the Dreamer a better than average chance to just outright deny you any points, and in many cases will not hinder his ability to go for his own.

Again I'm not calling for outright changes to the Dreamer or even that he should be changed, just a recognition that he is what he is.

[Calmdown]

This is a longpost so apologies, but I had a spare 15 mins, a lot of it is just echoing what Strumpet said tbh.

Stuff about tempo

Completely agree. Playing Dreamer is like playing Kirai on steroids. You own the board (this is also the reason why hyper-aggressive, very fast moving crews work well against Dreamer; get in his face fast enough and you can cause him "problems". I say "problems" because you then have to deal with better-than-their-points-cost models like Lilitu, Lelu, Coppellius, and Stitched, but at least you're in melee range!).

Claim Jump: Possibly one the Dreamer doesn't have the edge on. However it is still possible for him to play an almost totally non interactive game, other than sniping models along your crew's edges with Chompy and then dumping his whole crew out thus most likely Denying you your points from this strat.

I think he has just as much of an edge on this as most things *as long as* you can keep the Dreamer alive long enough. If he dies close to the time when he needs to move his crew from whatever else it's completing/denying, then suddenly you can find yourself without the maneuverability to get there.

Contain Power: As a Multi-model Master you must kill both Chompy and the Dreamer in order to achieve any points, and your master must kill them for maximum points. Need I say more on how difficult this is to achieve given the Defenses on one model, the usual inaccessibility to attack one model has, and the SS pool they come in with?

Chompy is easy to kill, dont forget. His only defense is terror and soulstones. His Df and Wd are piss poor. Dreamer is also ridiculously easy to kill if you have pushes/pulls/etc because you can't commit *that* many Nightmares to sticking to him if said Nightmares also need to be fighting; the ranges just dont work out (to really protect the Dreamer from melee strikes takes 2/3 models within 1" of him due to being able to position your melee models out of melee range of said Nightmares). Not saying this is easy by any means (contain power rarely is), and killing two models is horrible, but I dont feel that killing either model is super hard if done right, even against a good Dreamer player.

Deliver a Message: . . . Try to pin down the dreamer long enough for your model to make the (2) interact action to deliver your message.

To an extent yes, but remember, from turn 2-3 (depending on your crew speed) you should be in Dreamer's general area; and also remember, if he's not in your area, there's a good chance he's burning AP to stay away rather than being involved, leaving his crew unsupported or less supported. I think this is probably one of the easier strats against the Dreamer.

Note: I say easy, although it's likely that if you post in the rules forum you'll get a ruling that Shadowy Form prevents Delivery of a Message and Stealing Relics.....

*Very* difficult to stop this at the best of times, agaisnt good crews with lots of leap of movement shenanigans. Protecting multiple counters means dumping your crew onto the table turn one and losing on of your major advantages. I think if your crew is up to it, this is one of the best strats against the Dreamer.

I've actually never played this somehow. But it seems to me that Dreamer would melt face at it?

I think that this is one of the hardest strats in the game except for with specific crews; by its nature you need to spread out and if your opponent is smart at denying quarters, you need to have many more models than him, too. My normal strat with Reconnoiter (with any master) is to play it like Slaughter and try and position for quarters later; it's not really feasible to win without killing a lot of opposing models. Dreamer crews not only excel at killing things like this, and keeping its own models safe, as well as moving to deny quarters, but in addition the number of models in a Dreamer crew is on the high side and insignificant models can hold quarters. This strat is horrible against Dreamer.

We can get an errata Shadowy Form, but we can't get an errata to the single worst mechanic in the game.

If I ever dont get 4 poitns from Supply Wagon, I'll quit Malifaux. This strat is horrible, and Chompy will smash it to bits in short order thanks to his damage line.

Night Terrors

Insidious Madness

Silurid

Dreamer/Chompy

ENTIRE CREW DUMP

You better get that treasure counter and move backwards in your first activation, or you probably never will. Even if you pick it up, chance is your models are going to get slaughtered carrying it. Yeh.

Slightly disagree, and being able to do it with any model makes it even easier.

More based on the master than anything else, like Bodyguard usually is. Although of course, you do have the best melee model in the game, so you can;t ask for much more

In friendlies, I remind people not to take this against me because their completion chances are not very high.

And the fact that the Dreamer is the only master in the game that can control, with 1 or 2 AP, exactly how many models it has on the board. E4E about to complete? Bury or unbury a model or two.

I dont see F4M - with any crew - as a good scheme for VP. I see it as a mechanic for denying your opponent a target. For example, if the game is Treasure Hunt, F4M your Treasure Grabber and suddenly he's safe from Chompy or you're getting free VP.

This scheme is so broken. Drain Souls too.

As long as he can keep Dreamer in play.

Another broken scheme

Awaiting "Malifaux is about objectives, anyone can win" comments from various people

[karn987]

I'll post a full comment later. But all this "Broken Scheme" or "Not working correctly" lately seems to be because people assume... things aren't working as intended... Kill Protege vs the Dreamer works exactly as intended. Pretty much the same thing with Grudge. Yeah he can hide it, but that also means he just kept a powerful model off the field the entire game. Plus since you know your going up against him at the point where you pick Schemes, your a little foolish to take it any way. Just like taking Eye for an Eye vs Ressers is often a foolish endeavor, so not a big surprise there.

[Calmdown]

I'll post a full comment later. But all this "Broken Scheme" or "Not working correctly" lately seems to be because people assume... things aren't working as intended... Kill Protege vs the Dreamer works exactly as intended. Pretty much the same thing with Grudge. Yeah he can hide it, but that also means he just kept a powerful model off the field the entire game. Plus since you know your going up against him at the point where you pick Schemes, your a little foolish to take it any way. Just like taking Eye for an Eye vs Ressers is often a foolish endeavor, so not a big surprise there.

On paper that sounds fine, in real play it doesn't hold up, unfortunately.

Grudge or KP doesnt mean he has to hide it all game, just means he pops it out in safe situations (and he has board control all game by his nature, to enforce these safe situations). It also means that once he has a VP advantage on the board, he can almost completely deny you your 2VP should he so wish. That should never be possible.

And that's before we even get into Drain Souls, which essentially renders both of said schemes not viable for tournament play in any case. In most VP based tournaments, if you take Grudge/KP and your opponent sacs his model first turn, he might be throwing away the game but he's also pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to win the tournament since you generally need 8vp from every game to get to the top spot.

[Cunning]

And that's before we even get into Drain Souls, which essentially renders both of said schemes not viable for tournament play in any case. In most VP based tournaments, if you take Grudge/KP and your opponent sacs his model first turn, he might be throwing away the game but he's also pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to win the tournament since you generally need 8vp from every game to get to the top spot.

Why on earth would you do that? Surely the best plan is to try and win yourself. Why would you scupper your chances of winning just so your opponent can't win the tournament?

Personally i like it if one of the people who beat me goes on to win the tournament. Even if I didn't I wouldn't be vindictive enough to sabotage their chances.

It makes no sense at all and anyone who did this I would happily describe as something rude.

[karn987]

On paper that sounds fine, in real play it doesn't hold up, unfortunately.

Grudge or KP doesnt mean he has to hide it all game, just means he pops it out in safe situations (and he has board control all game by his nature, to enforce these safe situations). It also means that once he has a VP advantage on the board, he can almost completely deny you your 2VP should he so wish. That should never be possible.

There are a number of other models/Masters in the game that can pull this kind of thing on you. What if the Protege etc is Nino or Hans? Good luck ever getting them if they don't want them dead. How about Corphyee or Cassandra? Again, good luck. There are many more examples where it can become next to impossible to get the model if your opponent wants to focus on not letting you get it. For the Dreamer this is his play style, so again not a big surprise that he would want to keep his models safe. If you are willing to take those Schemes agains the Dreamer then you have to live with that. Because not every Scheme is going to have the same chance of success against every crew and that IS the way it should be.

Plus this is much less safe and assured then you make it out to be. The Dreamer bomb is not unstoppable and there are ways to deal with it which people have brought up. You will get a chance to strike back and get that Protege/Grudge unless things go perfectly for the Dreamer player, which they rarely do.

And that's before we even get into Drain Souls, which essentially renders both of said schemes not viable for tournament play in any case. In most VP based tournaments, if you take Grudge/KP and your opponent sacs his model first turn, he might be throwing away the game but he's also pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to win the tournament since you generally need 8vp from every game to get to the top spot.

Yeah what stunt said. Everything is assuming people play within the spirit of the game and don't do jerk things like that. The game assumes people are playing to win and thats the best it can ever do. Sorry but most people are not that stupidly vindictive and I'm rather sure many Tourney Organizers would take issue with that kind of behaviour. The point is to have fun in the end and someone being an outright jerk like that deserves to have the TO give the opponent their full Scheme points, I'd do that in a heart beat and I'm sure there are plenty of other TO's that would to.

So in reality, it does actually hold up save for 1 jerky instance that is not that likely to happen. That only spiteful players would do and in a hyper competitive environment which is in the vast minority of play environments. But granted that I do agree, the option to do that should not exist and is a hole in the rules.

Edited September 13, 2011 by karn987

[Q'iq'el]

And that's before we even get into Drain Souls, which essentially renders both of said schemes not viable for tournament play in any case. In most VP based tournaments, if you take Grudge/KP and your opponent sacs his model first turn, he might be throwing away the game but he's also pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to win the tournament since you generally need 8vp from every game to get to the top spot.

Has that ever happened? Do people throw away games like that, out of spite, so that their opponent loses his chance at top place?

Granted option like this shouldn't exist in the first place, but I sort of can't imagine anyone actually doing that.

And if I were a TO, I'd simply remove the Drain Soul ability. I don't see lack of that option as a huge hit on the game.

[Calmdown]

Has that ever happened? Do people throw away games like that, out of spite, so that their opponent loses his chance at top place?

Granted option like this shouldn't exist in the first place, but I sort of can't imagine anyone actually doing that.

And if I were a TO, I'd simply remove the Drain Soul ability. I don't see lack of that option as a huge hit on the game.

Gamesmanship exists, its a simple fact. If I'm playing against the best player in a tournament and I'm in with a chance of winning, lets say I have my 8vp already, I'm absolutely going to sac my model to make sure he cant get 8vp also. Or lets say its turn one and I know my team-mate is going to be in the final or at the top of the leaderboard and this guy is his biggest potential threat, I'm absolutely going to knock points off of him.

You may not like it, gents, but gamesmanship exists. The best way to get round it isnt by calling people bad names and frowning upon it, the best way round it is to make the rules good enough that it cant happen. You shouldnt get pissy with people who are playing completely within the rules, you should get pissy that the rules allow it in the first place.

And if you're not happy with people playing to win using whatever means at their disposal, then you shouldnt be playing tournaments.

Has that ever happened? Do people throw away games like that, out of spite, so that their opponent loses his chance at top place?

I've been playing tournament games for 13 years now, and I've seen it more times than I can count. I started out naive and trying to play 'in the spirit of the game' but, these things are legal so people will do them, and I found myself a victim of it many times. I realised that if everyone is playing from the same hymn sheet - ie within the rules - then it evens out all around. So you play by the rules as to what the rules allow you to do. It's really no different or worse than a faction imbalance.

Again, in an ideal world, it wouldn't be possible because the rules would prohibit it.

Everything is assuming people play within the spirit of the game and don't do jerk things like that. The game assumes people are playing to win and thats the best it can ever do. Sorry but most people are not that stupidly vindictive and I'm rather sure many Tourney Organizers would take issue with that kind of behaviour. The point is to have fun in the end and someone being an outright jerk like that deserves to have the TO give the opponent their full Scheme points, I'd do that in a heart beat and I'm sure there are plenty of other TO's that would to.

A tournament organiser should absolutely not take issue with someone doing that. It's within the rules, and who is a TO to judge a player's motivations? What if the player thinks that he has no chance to accomplish one of his schemes, and that saccing that model and making the game a fight over 6VP is his best option? What if the player is running Jack Daw and wants to try to win the game 7-6 with Jack's extra VP? Where do you draw the line at letting a TO award people VP because they don't like someone's behaviour?

No, you can't do that. It's ridiculous. Hate the rules, don't hate the player.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Calmdown

[Cunning]

I can understand it to prevent him winning the game but doing it to throw the game but prevent him winning the tournament is just not cricket.

I will always try and win the game myself rather than spoil someone elses chances of winning a tournament.

[karn987]

I can understand it to prevent him winning the game but doing it to throw the game but prevent him winning the tournament is just not cricket.

I will always try and win the game myself rather than spoil someone elses chances of winning a tournament.

It's an old problem, Spoilers vs Players. Spoilers hind behind logic like Calmdown cited making it nearly impossible for Players to do much besides sink down to their level or push ahead trying to fight through the BS. That's where the TO/EO has to step in and decide if he really wants to let the Spoilers have their way with his/her event or not. Some TO's and Events are going to allow it, others aren't. It comes down to, what the TO believes is the "spirit of the game "and if he/she is going to have players play by it or not.

The line is rather simple to see and draw. That is an obvious abuse of the system/rules whiles Jack Daws extra VP is obviously intended and not even in the same category. It's really that simple.

Edited September 13, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

I can understand it to prevent him winning the game but doing it to throw the game but prevent him winning the tournament is just not cricket.

I will always try and win the game myself rather than spoil someone elses chances of winning a tournament.

And who decides what the guy's reasons were? Lets say he explains it away for game reasons. Maybe they were game reasons. Maybe he didnt like his opponent. How can you tell? And how can a TO intervene and tell him he can or cannot based on the TO's feelings towards the action?

He can't. This is why the rules need to change, as whilst it's legal within the rules, no one can judge his motivations, and he's well within his rights to do it because it's legal.

[Cunning]

I never said anything about TO intervention. I said I'd call them a rude word. But if they're winning say 6-4 and last turn the loser sacs the KP target or he does it first turn (as in you example) then it's pretty obvious.

Also, 'maybe he didn't like his opponent' is just as much a #rude word# reason.

[Calmdown]

It's an old problem, Spoilers vs Players. Spoilers hind behind logic like Calmdown cited making it nearly impossible for Players to do much besides sink down to their level or push ahead trying to fight through the BS. That's where the TO/EO has to step in and decide if he really wants to let the Spoilers have their way with his/her event or not. Some TO's and Events are going to allow it, others aren't. It comes down to, what the TO believes is the "spirit of the game "and if he/she is going to have players play by it or not.

The line is rather simple to see and draw. That is an obvious abuse of the system/rules whiles Jack Daws extra VP is obviously intended and not even in the same category. It's really that simple.

So its OK for a player to sac a model and deny 2 VP if, in your opinion, he's doing it for the right reasons.

It's not OK if, in your opinion of the game, he's doing it for the wrong reasons.

So whether I win or lose a game is no longer in my control via what decisions I make within the rules - whether I win or lose is now down to what you deem as acceptable play?

You don't see a problem with this?

But if they're winning say 6-4 and last turn the loser sacs the KP target or he does it first turn (as in you example) then it's pretty obvious.

So you agree that anyone doing this as a game winning tactic is a douche?

[karn987]

So its OK for a player to sac a model and deny 2 VP if, in your opinion, he's doing it for the right reasons.

It's not OK if, in your opinion of the game, he's doing it for the wrong reasons.

Twisting my words will not get you anywhere Calmdown. Your flying right past my point.

Common sense goes a long way with this and as you have to with any event, you have to trust and play by the TO's rules. If you don't like their rules, you don't play.

My opinion on "sac a model and deny 2 VP if, in your opinion, he's doing it for the right reasons" does not matter here. The TO's does. Plus "Right Reasons" is completly subjective. If you want to play like a jerk, then the "right reasons" are going to seem different to you then someone who doesn't. You base it off the community your playing with and go from there, it's that simple.

Say your playing in a community of min/maxers and rule's lawyers. They are going to want to play with every skeevy thing they can get their hands on, so then let them. But if your playing in a community of relaxed players who play the game more then game the game, then you probably want to bar that stuff.

So whether I win or lose a game is no longer in my control via what decisions I make within the rules - whether I win or lose is now down to what you deem as acceptable play?

You don't see a problem with this?

I dohave a problem with it, but that was clearly not what I was saying. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

If your game is based so heavily on 1 or 2 questionable things in the rules, then ...maybe you deserve to lose for playing like that? I don't certainly know.

Edited September 13, 2011 by karn987

[Cunning]

To be honest I agree that a TO really shouldn't interfere with this. It's perfectly legal within the scope of the rules. Doesn't mean that the person doing it is a #rude word# if they do it just spoil someone else's chance rather than as a way to win themselves.

[Calmdown]

Twisting my words will not get you anywhere Calmdown. Your flying right past my point.

Common sense goes a long way with this and as you have to with any event, you have to trust and play by the TO's rules. If you don't like their rules, you don't play.

My opinion on "sac a model and deny 2 VP if, in your opinion, he's doing it for the right reasons" does not matter here. The TO's does. Plus "Right Reasons" is completly subjective. If you want to play like a jerk, then the "right reasons" are going to seem different to you then someone who doesn't. You base it off the community your playing with and go from there, it's that simple.

Say your playing in a community of min/maxers and rule's lawyers. They are going to want to play with every skeevy thing they can get their hands on, so then let them. But if your playing in a community of relaxed players who play the game more then game the game, then you probably want to bar that stuff.

Oh and one thing, you are always playing by what somoene deems acceptible Admit it or not, its a fact of the matter.

The point is mate, that if you, as a TO, deem this unacceptable, then ban it. Make it illegal. If you don't want to do that, then don't ban it and leave it legal. As I've said before, I'd make it illegal because its a douche move, but if you dont make it illegal, then you shouldn't ever intervene if someone does it.

Having someone interpret someone else's actions as OK or not OK is a bad idea and is *precisely* why we have rules to govern our games. Take a stance and stick to it.

I've been writing game and tournament rules for a lot of years, and believe me when I say, grey areas only ever lead to problems. Claiming you're good enough/fair enough/whatever to interpret a situation correctly is all well and good, but if you have a clear and concise rule to govern the situation, you're never forced into that situation to start with and everyone knows where they stand and is happy.

[Csonti]

:tj:

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree that as a whole Malifaux players tend to be good sports. That said what Calmdown says is in this instance very accurate, and while I do agree with Karn's take that, yes, KP and Grudge are often better used as a "try to keep said model out of the game" type of thing, that only works for casual play. In a tournament, depending on format, every single point you can get is very important. Conversely every point you deny your opponent is also very important.

What he is describing does happen and as much as we would like to call the player a bad sport and want the TO to fix this issue, it wouldn't be fair if he did. The rules are the rules and that is what we have to play under. Calmdown is right in that if we don't like that this is a viable tactic we should very politely ask Wyrd to look into the ramifications, and if they deem it appropriate, change the wording on those schemes.

I played in a summer long accumulation format league, and this thing came up again and again. Especially since schemes are unique there are only so many that certain crews are good at, and if you have a killy crew you are going to take these at some point. The opponent is not being a bad sport if his killing of the model is a good tactical decision, and I don't think it appropriate that we try to police motives. The rules are what we have to go by.

[karn987]

:tj:

Good point. My appologizes, got carried away on a different topic.

@Strumpet: You make some very valid points. The current set of Schemes and Strategies do lean towards making it easier for the Dreamer to achieve or deny them. But I think some of this is due the things we already know well, like Stitched Togethers Does Not Die interaction with kill based objectives. If those, specifically that one, was tweaked... I think things would take a significant shift in the other dirrection. Maybe for the best, but it would have to be tested heavily to look for cracks and being sure as to not be a full on cuddle. I don't despute he could be brought into line in a few places.

Otherwise I don't believe he has that much up on any other speedy crew such as Colette, Kirai etc. How do you think he compares to the other crews that achieve his level of speed? Of course taking into account the high killing power of the Nightmares and the other crews nuances etc. I think a lot of the advantages he has would be countered or equaled by theirs. But does this prove an old point brought up in another thread that Speed is the king in Malifaux?

Edited September 13, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

:tj:

Fair enough

Otherwise I don't believe he has that much up on any other speedy crew such as Colette, Kirai etc. How do you think he compares to the other crews that achieve his level of speed? Of course taking into account the high killing power of the Nightmares etc.

IMO there are subtle (or not so subtle) differences in the those and the Dreamer's 'speed':

-Neither of these crews can achieve his levels of speed; for Kirai to fling a model 24"+ across the board requires a significant investment of AP and sacrificed models. For Collette to do it means leaving at least one model (a teleport target or such) out of position, or using a model that won't have much AP left when it gets there (ie, simply moving a Coryphee a lot). And neither of those masters are dropping out something with the combat potential of Lord Chomp Bits when they get there.

-Dreamer can pick up and/or drop his *entire crew* to a place on the board which is, to all intents and purposes, of his choosing, bypassing all of the usual lanes of movement, disengaging strikes, etc to place his models in optimal positions.

-Dreamer has a builtin safety net (burying) that can be used when he needs to instantly go defensive.

-Dreamer has the ability to position multiple "threat points" on the board with Daydreams. Kirai can do this with Spirits but only with line of sight, only within 18", and spirits you'll move afterward need to be prepositioned within 12" of those threat points, meaning the threats cant be everywhere at once. Collette can pseudo-do this but her threat points are obvious and she can't reposition as much, at once.

They definitely all do similar things - it's why they're all top tier masters - but Dreamer just does each one slightly/a lot better. Of course this is not to say the others dont have advantages in other areas, but the huge killy potential of Nightmares compared to the mediocre killy power of spirits and showgirls is a pretty big differentiating factor.

[sharpobjects]

I rarely announce KP anymore. I will take my chances with only getting 1VP rather than watch my oponent either sack the model or keep him in his deployment zone. Or even worse, the dreamer keeping him burried.

The only time I am tempted to announce KP is if my oponent has brought a very expensive model that I know he wants to use and not hide or sack.

Whether my oponent sacks the KP model or runs the model away in the final round, keeps it hidden in the deployment zone all game or burries it, its all pimpy to me but within the game rules.

I have never been angry at the oponent for doing it. I am only angry at myself for annoucing KP. Which is why I rarely do it anymore

[Calmdown]

I have never been angry at the oponent for doing it. I am only angry at myself for annoucing KP. Which is why I rarely do it anymore

Absolutely right! Blame yourself, not the guy who played by the rules. But it's a shame that two of the most generalist schemes are neutered by this whole thing. Some masters really struggle for decent schemes for themselves whilst others have a huge range, or this wouldn't be a problem.

It gets even worse when schemes are made unique in tournaments etc.

But back on topic!

[Smokey616]

in the wording of lcb's spell "discard two soulstones. place a daydream within 8" of this model. immediately activate this daydream following this model's activation. the daydream may only take walk and (0) actions this turn" although rereading it I mistook it for just having slow so he cannot bury himself. I will see if i can revise this in the orginal post... but yes all done with a high book in hand is great but i tend to save that for latter rounds when the other master has no soulstones or i already have all 3 daydreams.

Just a thought; daydream 2 (1) walks then casts (1) frightening dream. Unbury Lcb within 6". Shouldn't one master go off then and start Lcbs activation?

[Smokey616]

Not that digression was occurring or anything

[Fetid Strumpet]

Smokey, no. Which, in some instances is both fortunate & unfortunate. The way One Master works is that when The Dreamer or Chompy comes out they get a sort of hyper version of Seamus' Womanizer. In effect what happens is when one of the two NB masters hits the table that model instantly breaks into the activation chain as the next model that must activate.

This is beneficial because if you, for instance, have an Ortega family activation chain going on Chompy or the Dreamer will break into the activation order as soon as the current activating model is done. You still get to finish your actions. So if Perdita kills the Dreamer in on the first of her activations she will get her remaining actions to act on Chompy before he gets a chance to take her head off.

The downside is that it allows for not only the ability to drop the NB player's crew into melee range of the opposing crew in that opponent's deployment zone, but also allows for a Chompy activation with 2 attack AP + all the Onslaughts he can trigger.