Getting more mileage out of Datsue Ba

[DeleteAccount]

This is mostly directed to Kirai players, but I'm open to suggestions with other masters (mostly Seamus). Basically, the results from the hag have been... lacking in my games and she is currently phased out of my lists with a burly Shikome taking her place (and names, and lives, and joy and) and well, I don't want to feel the crone is just a glorified dust gatherer.

With the advent of Avatar Kirai she may get a few more chances thanks to me feeling that if I'm banking on avataring, starting with more strong spirits from the getgo seems like a good idea, but to value that, I still need to understand what I can bring to the table with her.

I pressume a big selling point is guide spirits, but that is competing with the all important masks Kirai needs to spiritfy herself, soothe spirit is also very good, but the lost love can do healing duty for cheaper if that's my selling point. Her melee prowess are on the meh side with harvest sinners being her only way to get more bang for her buck. Her damage isn't too stellar either though her triggers are very solid.

Outside of Kirai it gets even harder, I mean, she can combo a bit with her terrify and face your sins with Seamus and having the option to ignore armour and strike WP is always awesome, but an Onrio can already do that for him.

Basically, this is a call to help to those who like ol Ba.

[pigi314159]

I found use in Datsue-ba as a striker. If you have decent crows in your hand she can unleash a world of hurt with a combo of Harvest Sinners/Skinned Alive/Weigh Sins. You could use Kirai's swirling spirits to get her into position to do so.

I have found her most useful however in getting Ikiryo to walk more often. Granted this fights for masks, however it does give you use of the 5 and 6 of Masks. (I tend to think 1-4 can be used as a soulstone additive to make sure Kirai gets her spirit off)

Her healing capability is another aspect that is very useful (especially if Kirai is going spirit often). But in general, I find that Datsue-ba provides a Jack of All trades kind of utility. Whatever the opponent does not counter becomes her greatest strength.

Is she the best thing Kirai could field? I think we all agree that would be Ikiryo. However she does add the additional threat of more summons, heals, extra mobility, and not too shabby in combat herself. I think the trick is to pick one of those things and do it on her activation. Once you start spreading out points to hit multiple aspects I feel her strength starts to fall off.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I find it useful to take her. Even if she does nothing directly she is difficult to kill, and is too much of a threat with the ability to summon models for the opponent to completely ignore her. I tend to look at her as a distraction against most opponents. She does tend to do quite well against living swarm armies. Drop her into the middle of a clump of living models and then harvest sinners. I've had very satisfactory results doing that. I also use her as an objective runner, and often try to cast guide spirits on herself. If it works, great, if it doesn't it I don't sweat it much.

[ravenborne]

So far in my games, her movement abilities and and ability to make new seem to make her worth it. Her reliance on suits seems to be the biggest problem, competing with Kirai and Lost Love.

Kirai can be played offensively or defensively, so perhaps choosing her in the more defensive strategies is best, and then trade her out with a more aggressive model in an offensive style strategy .

[DeleteAccount]

Well, you have convinced me to readd her to my lists at the 30 soul level and see if I can get more mileage out of her. Basically the vibe I'm getting is "she ain't amazing, but when she pulls her weight, you'll be happy she was around" and when I used her it was when I still didn't get my groove with Kirai or Malifaux yet, so things will probable change a bit on the table with her now.

[Calmdown]

I went through this exact same thing and my final conclusion was that she's not worth it.

The problem is that she's such a good model and does a lot for 7 points which makes you want her to work, but she juat doesnt. She cant keep up with Kirai, she needs too many precious suits to be effective and she doesnt hit hard enough (or things die to your real hard hitters) to make the waves of Gaki she looks like she can on paper.

Long story short; great support model with no place in a kirai list.

[edonil]

I went through this exact same thing and my final conclusion was that she's not worth it.

The problem is that she's such a good model and does a lot for 7 points which makes you want her to work, but she juat doesnt. She cant keep up with Kirai, she needs too many precious suits to be effective and she doesnt hit hard enough (or things die to your real hard hitters) to make the waves of Gaki she looks like she can on paper.

Long story short; great support model with no place in a kirai list.

What would you use instead for those points? Assuming you've already got a heavy hitter like Dead Rider, I mean

[DeleteAccount]

What would you use instead for those points? Assuming you've already got a heavy hitter like Dead Rider, I mean

Well, for me personally she was cruelly displaced by a Shikome. But I don't play with 35 stones yet, after reading a bit here, I do want to include her again and see if I get some more groove out of her.

[Calmdown]

What would you use instead for those points? Assuming you've already got a heavy hitter like Dead Rider, I mean

More heavy hitters/objective chasers/models with better utility.

+1 point gets you a Shikome (if you arent already running two)

+2 points (ie, dropping a Seishin) gets you Jack Daw (all sorts of uses)

-3 points gets you an Insidious Madness (objective chaser, and/or awesome for grabbing initiative)

-1 points gets you 2 Gakis or Night Terrors(objective chasers/some limited combat use)

There's so much you can do with 7ss that's better than Datsue-Ba in almost every case. Personally my favourite is Insidious Madness + Night Terror. I run two Shikomes most of the time anyway.

(I've been using Gaki as my 3pt model of choice but finally decided I'd rather have +1 move and flight than the Gaki's incredibly limited and low success chance devours).

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would disagree that she is useless. True I've said I tend to use her as a distraction, but my play style with Kirai tends to treat her like a scalpel. I have tried and am becoming more enamored with running Kirai, Datsue-ba, Lost Love, Full Seishin, and then all the Gaki the list can handle. This not only lets me swarm the board, out activating anyone else, but also gives Kirai even more Jump Points, and more models to use via Evolve Spirit. Datsue-Ba in this instance serves an an additional objective runner, by casting guide spirits on herself, but she also does quiet well for me in cutting down the opposition if the situation warrents it.

[Imperator]

Datsue-ba is boss.

She has a better walk than onryo, which are the backbone of your crew, or should be, meaning that she can keep up with what's going on on the table, she can splash about an extra walk if you have excess control cards, and she can be used to establish a material advantage over your opponent.

turn 2 I tend to identify the first model that I'm going to be able to bring down; Kirai marks them as spirit food, onryo move up and severely weaken them and I keep my best crow in hand if I have one above 9. Datsue-ba moves up and throws wheigh sins at them with incorrectly judged and come out of it with an onryo, saishin and gaki better than I started the turn with.

Whenever you seen an enemy model with hard to kill, you look at Datsue-ba and smile inwardly to yourself that hard to kill only makes that model work better you your plans.

[dakrulz55]

man i must be silly but in all my kirai games i never have summoned an onryo. i think they're too weak to actually achieve anything. but then again i only brought datsue ba in 2 games with kirai. on the other hand with seamus i tend to bring datsue ba as a spirit marshal for the hanged and daw if i bring him too. using lure and guide spirits get the hanged into combat and giving -wp flips early is really good. then using weigh sins to finish off what the hanged haven't is really good. also seamus has a hard time with armor and skinning knife helps.

[Calmdown]

man i must be silly but in all my kirai games i never have summoned an onryo. i think they're too weak to actually achieve anything. but then again i only brought datsue ba in 2 games with kirai. on the other hand with seamus i tend to bring datsue ba as a spirit marshal for the hanged and daw if i bring him too. using lure and guide spirits get the hanged into combat and giving -wp flips early is really good. then using weigh sins to finish off what the hanged haven't is really good. also seamus has a hard time with armor and skinning knife helps.

I've summoned Onryo in probably 4 or 5 games out of 30+. And normally I only summon them because I have nothing better to do (ie: I dont need to summon Ikiryo or a Shikome, dont want to Chill anything and dont need to Swirl...).

Onryo do do ok damage for a 5 point model as well as provide a little bit of utility, and are hard to take down to boot (plus punish you for it, of course). They're by no means a bad model, they just tend to be superfluous.

I have started with them twice against shooty crews though, since they can often float around with relative ease completing objectives or getting stuck in because no-one likes take wounds from shooting a minor target when they could take no wounds and shoot an important one.

[ravenborne]

I have noticed as well that except in certain situations, I only summon Onryo when there isn't much else to do, but actually adding to the gaki swarm seems often more effective.

Datsu ba can be really nice if that's your plan.

[Zephir]

If you haven't used it yet try adding in the insideous Madness. I haven't seen much that can live through Ikiryo and/or Datsue-Ba's Attacks with an Insideous Madness around de-buffing WP's. It also makes Weigh Sins pretty much a sure thing to go off.

Personally when i start my Kirai lists I set aside points for Seishin, Lost Love, Datsue, and an Insideous. Then I work in what ever else I feel like I might need. I have found that some games she doesn't do great, but thats usually becasue she dies before she gets going. If you can keep her safe until she gets 1 or 2 turns of good attacks off with her she will be more than worth it as you can generally turn 1-2 enemies into Gaki/Onryo with her.