Fickle gamers: Brand loyalty in the world of toy soldiers.

[Ebonstar]

Although I am really big into Malifaux right now, when people ask what I play my first answer is Blood Bowl.

But anyone who knows anything about Blood Bowl would agree that it stopped being a "GW" game a long time ago.

But yeah, I played 40K for 20 years. It was my first and my favorite for the majority of the time. I then had a brief stint in Fantasy, and then really Blood Bowl which stuck for a long time.

The main problem we had with Blood Bowl is gamer ADHD. Avid Blood Bowlers are die-hard, and IMO one of the most mature fantasy tabletop communities. But we are few and far between and our leagues are often stunted due to the influx and exodus of a larger, fickle gaming crowd.

It got to the point where I was heading out for a game twice a week and not ever getting one (besides the numberous demos I run for prospective players). I was tempted to go back to 40K (still have every miniature I've ever owned), but the game itself is just so boring to me I can't stand it. So a couple of people recommended Warmachine to me...

Okay so I bought 20 points of Retribution and painted it up, and then as I read and watched games I came to realize that the "Warmachine crowd" don't tend to be the folks I'd ever want to game with (sorry if that sounds judgemental WM players, but most WM players out here are massive douches). So I still have that army (painting a Myrmidon mini as I type this, just because I own it), but to me this is only barely a more tolerable option to 40K, simply because it's less boring (but chock full o' douches).

Luckily for me though, I stumbled upon Malifaux, and I've only played 4 games so far, but I've painted up three crews (had to talk myself out of buying Collodi's box today, lol!). I LOVE the miniatures. I enjoy the game. This is something I could play, something I could get into...probably not as much as Blood Bowl, but my investment in mini's was well worth just painting them and having them anyway.

I expect I will have the same problem though, that I have with Blood Bowl. Gamers will ooh and ahh and say "Yeah I'll play yeah I'm into it, yeah I'll be there" for Malifaux games, play twice...and then go back to 40K/WM, while our core 3-4 players will soldier on between this game and Blood Bowl (we'll run alternate seasons).

I have thousands of dollars invested in 40K and would still be playing it if GW had the slightest clue as to how to not ruin their games and alienate their customers. I will still keep 40K/WM in my back pocket either as an "in" to find mature, fun players who I can sell Blood Bowl/Malifaux to, but "The Big Two" in tabletop mini games are flat, boring, (or douchey) excuses to spend money compared to Malifaux and Blood Bowl.

Someone at the hobby store today asked me how I liked Malifaux compared to 40K/WM. I smiled and said "Those two things aren't even games compared to this."

But more people play em.

And Whoop! There It Is sold a lot of records too.

[Aegis Arising]

I have found for me the gameplay and availability of people to play with is what will sustain a game for me, however I have to have interest in the modeling and fluff also in order to get started. Being affordable and "ruling active" is just icing on the cake.

I personally started with Heroclix, which is not your typical miniatures game, but has some similarities. Along the way I did a brief and miserable stint with 40K. I also did D&D with heavy emphasis on miniatures to the point it was almost a board game.

Lately I have discovered a new group to game with. The group mainly plays Warmachine, Dystopian Wars, and Malifaux. Unfortunately I was introduced to the games in that order, and could have saved myself some time if it had been reverse. I bought a second hand Retribution Army played a few games and sold it (After I played Malifaux). I still have a small army for Dystopian and actually like it for a change up, but Malifaux is my ideal game.

The Fluff is still catching on for me as are the models, however the scale, and feel of the game is what appeals so much to me. Having played the large army sized 40K, I hated the fact it took almost 4 to 6 hours to played a mid-sized skirmish, and the lack of equal treatment on updating factions meant there was little if no balance. Malifaux is a similar scale to heroclix, but with a much better system also the lack of a collectible component helps alot for the wallet.

The main reasons why I sold off Warmachine in order to buy a few crews in Malifaux was for the following reasons...

Intergrated turns... No more I move my army you move yours.

No Caster/master kills to end the game prematurely.

No dice, Fate decks have a controlled randomness that limits "luck streaks" while allowing for variation from action to action, which is ingenious.

The Strategy and Scheme combination with VPs versus slaughter and king of the hill type scenarios only.

Pricing didn't hurt at all...

Length of play, I can play a skirmish start to finish in just under two hours.

Diversity in crews abilities and synergy between models within the crews. It is not always the most combat focused team who dominates in Malifaux.

Obviously I could go on, but simply put I don't see myself as fickle as much as I was not well informed.

[Backno]

I started miniatures with Battletech ~8 years ago. Didn't play much unless I went to visit friends at college. Got into 40k ~2 years ago, got tired of the game and the costs to run the armies that I wanted grew to be to much.

Thanks to the Blood Bowl games I had a love of the Skaven and had sworn that if there was ever a way to get a "cheap" start to a Skaven army in Fantasy I would do it. Island of Blood came out, I stocked up on cheap rats and found more people to play with.

While I LOVE the fluff of the Orks in 40k and the Skaven in Fantasy dealing with my armies became a chore. Having to dedicate very large chunks of my spending money every few months to build up my army. Having to dedicate insane hours to actually painting the huge numbers of troops (ask me about painting 90 clanrats over the span of 2 nights). And having to dedicate large parts of my days off just to get games in. Add in some of GW's more recent ways of treating their customers like crap and I was pretty much done.

I have been watching Malifaux for a while now and the whole concept just scratches all my itches. Cheap to get into, quick to play, tactical, easy to transport, awesome minis to paint and convert, and lots of variety from my own gangs. This year at Gen Con I got my first crew and scenic bases for the whole group because even if I don't play a lot of games, I want to paint and show off these minis.

With Puppet Wars I have yet another way to get my mini fix but I can also get other people to play with because they just need to sit down and play and don't have to buy into the game system to enjoy it.

tl:dr

Got tired of GW being jerks and making a game into my sole source of entertainment. Having no nostalgia or long term commitment to the game gave them the finger and now I am here.

[Talos]

I had a bunch of W40k models when I was a kid,which where really badly painted and my friends did not understand the rules so we made up our own. I stopped playing when I was 12 as I moved to a new school and nobody played, also at that time other things took over.

When I was in uni I started to get back into 40k as I found out a few friends back home played. I spent a year getting a 1500-2000 pt CSM army made and started a Ork one. I loved painting them and modeling them and coming up with new list ideas and themes. It was two years after I start my CSM that I finally got a game in. I played a few games of 40k and found the rules a bit simple for me, also the amount of money and time I had to put in just to change my list up was annoying. I loved the models and fluff but the gameplay just seemed really lacking.

I then played my first game of Malifaux and was hooked, it had everything for me fluff, great models, deep gameplay and I was able to change my list with out to much effort .

I have not played 40k since and have infact sold all my models.

Over the last few months I have been looking for a second game but just cant find one I enjoy as much as Malifaux. I gave WM/H ago and painted up a small battlebox of cryx but while the gameplay seemed solid I did not like the cartoony style of the models, most have fists the size of their heads or the crazy large shoulder pads.

Gave infinity a go and Iam in the process of painting up a Military Order starter set. I like the gameplay and models so I may have infinity as my second game.

But my main reason for sticking to one game system is just time. I can only play 1 game a week and each week I just want to play malifaux.

Looking at the challege threads for my club the last few months it really seems GW games are losing ground. Most game nights we have 3-4 Malifaux games then the rest are WM/H or infinity. We have maybe one GW game on a night.

[LonelyPath]

When I start a game I tend to stick with it regardless, even if it's just buying the odd model if I don't play it. I've spent long periods without anyone to game with for various systems and during those times I just continued to collect and paint things (albeit at a much slower rate). I've seen many "fly by night" gamers for many games (and I agree with a earlier statement about Warmahordes gamers being douches, but then I don't think much of the game system either).

I do shelf games though and presently I have WFB shelved due to Mat Ward. Yep, he managed to write a edition for a games system that crippled all of my armies, and not just mine either! (A friend of mine said to GW staff that Ward turn his High Elf army into a bits box, which is a accurate statement.) The only people in my area still playing WFB are those that did not play before 8th edition. I may have played Daemons and Vampires, but I've dnoe so for years. Undead since 2nd edition and Daemons since Slaves to Darkness was released (my Grey Knights army started at the same time). I could rebuild my armies, but I don't see why I'd need to buy another 2000 points of models just to play a game I already should have enough models for (6k of Daemons (Slaanesh and Nurgle) and 49k of Undead).

I'd also like to mention that I quit playing Daemons when they broke 7th edition. I tried the list a couple of times, tabled opponents by turn 3 and quit.

Instead of WFB we now run 28mm Warmaster and trying out Kings of War. Both are much better systems.

[Uncle]

My interest in various games tends to ebb and wane as things are released or as playgroups are formed (tournaments help too--I tend to play locally and despise the idea of a multi-hour drive for a game). I am semi-active in Warmachine, Malifaux, and Warhammer Fantasy, and with the Ogre book coming out in September, I am very excited to see my boys get an update.

I likely won't be purchasing any Malifaux until Collette's Avatar and/or Angie are released. I still need to buy a unit of Winter Guard for Warmachine, but that can wait for the moment--I have too much fun playing Karchev to worry about a deathstar for friendly games. Plus, I hate spending good money on ugly models.

My enthusiasm with 40k has been waning ever since 3rd Edition and I don't think 5th has done enough to really bring me back to speed. Plus, I have a fairly large Kult of Speed that needs to be repainted, and painter's paralysis has set in. There's something terrible about noting that you've painted 20 Boys and you're not even a quarter of the way done.

I don't know how Guard players do it.

[szma76]

Lately I have discovered a new group to game with. The group mainly plays Warmachine, Dystopian Wars, and Malifaux. Unfortunately I was introduced to the games in that order, and could have saved myself some time if it had been reverse.

Ryan and I tried to get you to wait and demo Malifaux before you purchase the elves...

[Dezzo]

Back in the mists of time I played nothing but GW games - at the time I was ignorant of the fact that other games existed.

I am not looking to start a merits of GW debate, but with their recent much publicised business decisions I think it is hard to argue that some previously staunchly loyal GW gamers have started to pick up crews/gangs armies for other games systems. In my experience I have noticed that a lot of these players become fickle gamers that then bounce from system to system the moment the new game company makes any kind of decision that they don't agree with.

Just wondering if anyone else has noted the same thing or whether it is perhaps all in my head?

What makes you stick with a game? What would make you throw your hands in the air and say 'that's it, i'm done here'?

Edit: And I don't mean that people play a variety of games, I'm pretty sure most of us do that.

I am done with a system when the owners of it obviously do not know what they are doing with it. Or at least have successfully engineered ways to reduce the accessibility of the system to more people (and hence have a bigger community pool, and not just a select type to pick up the system) all in the name of profits (or very poor corporate decisions that only benefits shareholders to keep them happy)

Excessively high entry requirements will also push me away. The whole reason why I picked up Malifaux was because the start up was so simple and quick. That is the other reason why the players can pick up other factions so easily. Low cost and easy start up.

When Malifaux starts being a 20 - 30 minimum model game, I am out.

When Malifaux start up costs spiral upwards to $300 for a new crew, I am out.

When Malifaux start selling $65 models that are an absolute requirement to use in tournament level crews... I am out.

The threshold for people leaving systems is not very high but if you are a user (or a veteran) of many systems you would know that eventually, every system / developer will go down one of the few roads that other developers have taken and there will be an exodus of players because of that.

There are many ways for Wyrd to expand their product range without it being solely all about miniatures... I do think (for what its worth) that to diversify their product range so that they can make profits to their IP outside of their miniature range will put less stress on their system and allow it to be less bloated in future.

It is all about starting early really...

[IronChief]

Going back to the original post, it seems the 'average' life of a miniature game locally is about two years. Folks are willing to play a good game for about that long before deciding it is time to try something new. As often as not, the new interest is not even a miniature game. They will drift off into video games, relationships, sports or what have you.

There are a few die-hard fans who will stick with one game year after year. Even they will vary in interest, but can always be counted on to be willing to put models on the table when asked. They may not even be the best players or modelers, but end up being the banner bearers for their game.

Games themselves are like food. Everyone has their own taste and what tastes great to one person may make another hurl. You can no more blame a gamer for liking a different game than you can blame a person for liking (or not liking) sushi. I haven't found a game yet that everyone likes.

What draws me to a game is theme, balance and available players. I dropped PP when the theme got to dark for my taste. Malifaux died locally due to balance issues. And as much as I would love to try Infinity, no one plays locally.

[011121]

Well, I started with 40k and left because you really can't get a decent tournament-winning army at a reasonable price. I also found the fluff dull for the existing factions/sub-factions, and non-existent if you wanted to play a sub-faction that wans't "primary" to the fluff writers. (I tried to play the Tau N'Dras sept, and there was no fluff to support it at all, even though it was mentioned in the codex. Barely, but it was mentioned.)

I actually really like that 40k has unexplored regions of the map, if you will, where players are free to make up their own chapters and so on. It provides a level of customization that I would miss. Malifaux is a very different game with a much more intimate feel which is fine, but it doesn't allow for you to design your own master for a crew for instance. Obviously there are more differences than that but that's one of the few where I'd say malifaux suffers for the comparison.

Now a lack of much game fluff at all certainly is a problem (one that I'm glad to see some work towards with Firestorm Armada).

[Aegis Arising]

Ryan and I tried to get you to wait and demo Malifaux before you purchase the elves...

Hindsight is 20/20... Well all is well that ends well...

[striker8]

Flighty gamers have been around as long as I have been in the wargaming hobby and it was common before I got involved and will continue forever

.

My group actually has a term for it, "Gamer ADD," but it's really a combination of ADD and OCD with a few others thrown in. We all have it in some fashion and its part and parcel to the type of people who enjoy the hobby.

It manifests it's self in different ways in different people and some of us control it a bit better than others. I'm a lead addict and have enough mini's for the armies and systems I play to build multiple armies but focus on one for each system, and while I don't do it now I use to buy rule sets like some women buy cheap romance novels. And we all know the guy that has to have the latest army even though he has others unbuilt or painted, the guy that jumps from army to army constantly, the guy who picks up every new game that comes out, and there are so many other symptoms of this idiosyncracy.

I will also say games tend to run in a cyclic fashion. One will go strong for a few months then be slowly replaced with another that will run for a few months. This repeats constantly with the older more established games rotating in an out more often. While this cycle is going on you still have people playing other stuff on the side and one of those side games may be the next main game in the cycle you just never know.

The indignation, and taking offence to everything a game company does that you hear online is realtively new and I chalk it up to people joining the internet mobs and things outside of gaming proper.