Rules Clarifications after first Kirai game

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

Probably not the best idea to start playing Kirai after only 3 games with the simple Viks. A few questions popped up that will probably be really easy to answer but I can't seem to find the answers.

When someone is attacking a spirit and triggers critical damage, will the damage be totalled and then halved or will the damage flip be halved and then critical damage added?

Are spells magical damage? This seems obvious but I can't find it stated anywhere in the rules manual.

Is Spirit Kirai a valid target for her own Swirling Spirits action.

Thanks for any help.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Im not 100% certain on your first question. We always add it to the dmg before 1/2ing it, but now that you bring it up I'll have to relook at this.

Spells are magical dmg, if they cause dmg.

Yes Kirai can swirl herself if she is a spirit.

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

I was certain that spells which caused damage were magical (Its obvious!) but looking through the magic section of the rules manual I couldn't find anything which actually specified that the damage was counted as magical.

We did play it as magical however, I'm not that pedantic.

As for critical damage I assumed that the 'bonus' damage was added before halving (spirit negates half of the incoming damage) but my opponent thought it may have been the other way around. I played this to his advantage as it only happened once or twice and his shooting was damaging his own models thanks to Immediate revenge.

Another final (for now) clarification, Kirai can use soothe spirit on herself when in spirit form can't she?

[hippieshopper]

Probably not the best idea to start playing Kirai after only 3 games with the simple Viks. A few questions popped up that will probably be really easy to answer but I can't seem to find the answers.

When someone is attacking a spirit and triggers critical damage, will the damage be totalled and then halved or will the damage flip be halved and then critical damage added?

Are spells magical damage? This seems obvious but I can't find it stated anywhere in the rules manual.

Is Spirit Kirai a valid target for her own Swirling Spirits action.

Thanks for any help.

1. If it's a Red Joker all that damage is considered one "piece"...so add it up and then cut it in half, rounding up.

2. Yes, spells hurt spirits as normal.

3. No, an action will say it can target the caster in the description.

4. Also no, see #3

[NinjaBreadMen]

I was the aforementioned opponent! Wee, what japes!

I played this to his advantage as it only happened once or twice and his shooting was damaging his own models thanks to Immediate revenge.

Don't say it like that! Hans may not have been the best choice against spirits (no doubt one of the worst in fact!) but he had his uses

[Hatchethead]

You can absolutely swirl and soothe spirit Kirai.

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

I didn't mean it in any negatory way! Hehe, usually if I have no idea which way a rule could sway I play by others understandings. Also Hans may have played more of a role had we played past turn 4...

@hippieshopper: is this (re 3 & 4) a general rule from somewhere in the manual or a precedent set by certain models rules?

And if the damage is not from a joker but from the critical damage trigger how would this affect #1?

[Stern]

as for the critical strike... normally with maths you multiply/divide before adding/subtracting, which is how we all used to play it and probably what your opponent was thinking as the rulebook mentions divides before addition... but it was ruled on another thread you half the TOTAL damage

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

It's not that I think Kirai should be able to swirl herself (if she can then she is ridiculously mobile) I just wanted to know if I had missed something from the rules (which is very likely as I still keep making big mistakes each game).

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

as for the critical strike... normally with maths you multiply/divide before adding/subtracting, which is how we all used to play it and probably what your opponent was thinking as the rulebook mentions divides before addition... but it was ruled on another thread you half the TOTAL damage

That's what I was thinking, the rules manual supported him by its mathematics segment, glad to know I'm not the only person to encounter the problem.

[Stern]

That's what I was thinking, the rules manual supported him by its mathematics segment, glad to know I'm not the only person to encounter the problem.

That's what confused me when it was ruled against the little maths segment in the rules manual, but it makes sense, except that extra point of damage DOES matter half the time

[Hatchethead]

A model cannot target itself with a Strike, nor can it inflict a wound on itself if doing so reduces it to 0 Wds. A model can only attack itself if the attack's description states that it can affect friendly models. Beyond those, I don't believe there are any additional targeting restrictions for a model wishing to target itself with Talents and/or Spells (barring specific text that states otherwise). If a spell requires a target (assuming it isn't restricted as per above), all you need is LoS, and a model always has LoS to itself.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Euclid (#ScottishMeta)]

The wording on swirling spirits is even looser as it just states :

'switch two friendly spirits within 12"of this model'

Kirai fulfils this criteria in my opinion.

[Hatchethead]

She's definitely within 12" of herself.

[hippieshopper]

It was ruled on another forum somewhere.

That is a problem this game has had since it's inception. There are a lot of rules about this game that AREN'T put in the rules manuals or their errata's.

I know it was specifically made for spells because of someone's bright idea to make loopholes.

I don't have the books or anything on me at the moment, but I will get that ruling for you sometime if a marshal doesn't clear it by then.

[dgraz]

I am 99.99% certain that Hatchet is correct about targeting herself.

[magicpockets]

as for the critical strike... normally with maths you multiply/divide before adding/subtracting, which is how we all used to play it and probably what your opponent was thinking as the rulebook mentions divides before addition... but it was ruled on another thread you half the TOTAL damage

Are you sure (linky?)

I thought the new RM said you do it maths stylee - multiply/divide then add/subtract, so -

1. Starting Damage

2. Modifiers which divide/multiply damage

3. Add/subtract damage

4. That's your wounds total

5. Modifiers that divide/multiply wounds

6. Lastly add/subtract any wounds

7. That's the total number of wounds done

^^ Is that not right?

EDIT: Just worked out where the confusion is. With spirits you effectively divide by 2 at stage 5 above, so you work out the total damage and then divide it by 2 for spirit

Edited August 7, 2011 by magicpockets

[Fetid Strumpet]

Swirl Spirits and Sooth Spirits are not Spells on Kirai, they are just abilities.

[Hatchethead]

It was ruled on another forum somewhere.

That is a problem this game has had since it's inception. There are a lot of rules about this game that AREN'T put in the rules manuals or their errata's.

I know it was specifically made for spells because of someone's bright idea to make loopholes.

I don't have the books or anything on me at the moment, but I will get that ruling for you sometime if a marshal doesn't clear it by then.

Hmm. Could be, but swirl and soothe aren't spells, they're actions (talents).

EDIT: D'oh, what Fetid said! ... Except they're definitely Actions (capital A) with an AP cost as opposed to "passive" Abilities.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Hatchethead

[DeleteAccount]

Taking advantage of this thread. I've heard people say they sac or self kill Kirai to trigger the lost love heal and spiritfy, how is that done if it is possible?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Basically, at its simplest level, it works like this:

1: Kirai becomes a Spirit, most easily achieved by using In the Spirit World.

2: Kirai uses the ability Absorb Spirit on herself, which specifies that a friendly spirit within 6" is sacrificed.

Pause here in the use of the Absorb Spirit Action

3: The Lost Love states that when a friendly Kirai is sacrificed or killed she instead remains in play with 4 wounds and becomes a spirit for the rest of the game. The Lost Love is Sacrificed and you must discard 2 cards.

Return here to the rest of the Absorb Spirit's text.

Kirai now heals two wounds, bringing her to 6, draws 2 cards, and gains Fast, which makes the action you spent to Absorb Spirit a wash (-1 Action +1 Action). She is also now a Spirit for the rest of the game.

Ideally you want to use this action when Kirai is at a very low level of health so you get the most return on your investment, but there are other great times to use it as well.

[DeleteAccount]

So for ecample, I could also do this while evolving spirits? By the timing you mention I suppose I would bleed myself after going spirit, right? So if I summon a shikome, sack Kirai and a seishin, I do Francis sacrifice first and then pay the wounds, right?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ok I *think* I see what you mean, so let me list the steps and see if I've got it correct.

1: You use In the Spirit World to position Kirai and make her a spirit.

2: You use Evolve Spirit. You succeed in the casting of the spell, and choose to Summon a Shikome.

3: You choose to sacrifice Kirai and another Spirit within 6".

Pause here in the steps of Evolve Spirit.

4: A friendly Kirai is being sacrificed so instead of being sacrificed she remains in play, he wounds are set at 4, and she becomes a spirit for the rest of the game.

Return to the rest of Evolve Spirit's text

5: You now must suffer 3 wounds (which since it is direct Wds and not Dmg you may not half because of of being a spirit).

6: Kirai drops to 1 wound and you summon a Shikome within 6" of her. In this instance you cannot use don't blink because the extra wound suffered for using it would kill Kirai.

In this instance I would say if you have another spirit within range it would be better to Evolve Spirit first, drop Kirai to a low wound level, then use Absorb spirit on herself and bring yourself back to 6 wounds. Obviously, however, it does require the extra spirit within 6" to sacrifice if you want to bring in a Shikome.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[DeleteAccount]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Final question, I can't bleed myself to death doing evolve spirit because of it being wounds and not damage, right?

[hippieshopper]

Are you sure (linky?)

I thought the new RM said you do it maths stylee - multiply/divide then add/subtract, so -

1. Starting Damage

2. Modifiers which divide/multiply damage

3. Add/subtract damage

4. That's your wounds total

5. Modifiers that divide/multiply wounds

6. Lastly add/subtract any wounds

7. That's the total number of wounds done

^^ Is that not right?

EDIT: Just worked out where the confusion is. With spirits you effectively divide by 2 at stage 5 above, so you work out the total damage and then divide it by 2 for spirit

Any damage caused by the Red Joker is all totaled up and considered one chunk of damage.

Anything else like Brutal or Critical Strike is considered extra though.