Hatchethead Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 I think it has also a little more to do with philosophy of Design behind the factions. Fetid's entire post is win, pie and deserves the ubiquitous "+1". So in addition to a tend in design philosophy which I think makes the sum greater than the whole of its parts you also have the fact that the Neverborn, outside of game mechanics, probably has a greater draw than the other factions for player base. Also, this is very, very true (in my experience). Neverborn not only inhabit the deep end of the shenanigans pool, they're also grandmasters of being cool. Teddy draws more new players than any single model in the game, and that includes zombie hookers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 In all reality it is a terribly small sample size. But if every major tournament for the next year were to have a representation like this then that would be a telling statement that changes where in need to happen. Yeah thats why I am volunteering to track all tourney results for the year. I am going to contact Zee and sKeTcH when they get back and get all the details from Gencon. After that I am going to ping anyone who lists a tourney up on the boards to send me the results. After a year it should give a lot of interesting data to discuss. With so many choices and options for tournies its not gonna yield and super conclusive results but it will be a fun experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 With so many choices and options for tournies its not gonna yield and super conclusive results but it will be a fun experiment. Cheers, nilus. That would be awesome. Pre-kudos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Shaper Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Well with Rankings HQ taking on Malifaux it would be interesting to see what happens with that so we can see if there is some form of dominance for a faction or not. This is one thing I'd like to see crossing over world wide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'm not a fan of Ranking HQ's interface. I'll probably track it here as well even if they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I think Bunniegodd used Avatar Zoraida in one of his games. I'm not 100% sure on that though. Just had a brief conversation with him last night. I know he ran Dreamer x3, and Zoraida x1 in his 4 games. He did but it was irrelevant and automanifested on turn 6. Just wanted to use it because he had painted it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 He did but it was irrelevant and automanifested on turn 6. Just wanted to use it because he had painted it up. Is that confirmation that (Auto) manifestation means the avatar manifests whether the player wants to or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Is that confirmation that (Auto) manifestation means the avatar manifests whether the player wants to or not? You can stop it by spending a soul stone. The other way to stop it is, of course, by not meeting your manifest requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) In all reality it is a terribly small sample size. But if every major tournament for the next year were to have a representation like this then that would be a telling statement that changes where in need to happen. Nah, even that would be too small a sample. The problem is, you cannot create a controlled environment anyway. Meta brings the self-fulfiling prophecy aspect to the thing - if people believe Neverborn are the top of the ladder, then people who want to win will practice and prepare with Neverborn and the Neverborn will be overrepresented and grab top spots too. (and as we know from WHFB tournaments, nobody sees the very same armies at the very bottom, where wannabe WAAC players with net lists are burried ) I believe we don't need numbers, but step-by-step reports of the best games. An experienced player can see where the things get out of control, where it is dumb luck and where the winner played cleverly. It's a better way to see things, than to try to force the dispute into statistics, where we'll never have enough data or good data. Edited August 8, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 You can stop it by spending a soul stone. The other way to stop it is, of course, by not meeting your manifest requirements. Spend a soulstone? Nice! I was hoping it was a forced manifestation. The option the spend a stone is unexpected, but cool. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Spend a soulstone? Nice! I was hoping it was a forced manifestation. The option the spend a stone is unexpected, but cool. Thanks! You have to do it every turn as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Nah, even that would be too small a sample. The problem is, you cannot create a controlled environment anyway. Meta brings the self-fulfiling prophecy aspect to the thing - if people believe Neverborn are the top of the ladder, then people who want to win will practice and prepare with Neverborn and the Neverborn will be overrepresented and grab top spots too. (and as we know from WHFB tournaments, nobody sees the very same armies at the very bottom, where wannabe WAAC players with net lists are burried ) I believe we don't need numbers, but step-by-step reports of the best games. An experienced player can see where the things get out of control, where it is dumb luck and where the winner played cleverly. It's a better way to see things, than to try to force the dispute into statistics, where we'll never have enough data or good data. I'm not disputing with you that even that would be a small sample size (ironically you would probably need data from about 5k tournaments) however it would show a trend. However I really believe one of the main reasons that "neverlose" have the op question brought to bear is that the faction requires actual tactical acumen to use well. And also that the "majority" of players don't really read up on anything other than the parts of the books for which crews they own/plan on buying. If you theoritically were too enter in a tournament of a decent size (currently say 24+) if you actually were to take heart and dedication into playtesting against various hard builds of about say 10-12 different masters and were familiar what makes them work and what to focus killing while you are on your way to strats/schemes I don't think they would be so widely regarded as "insane". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 And here lies the biggest danger to competitive Malifaux, doesn't it? There are so many rules, even hard core players can't remember them all. The release schedule is murderous, with game changing models appearing every couple of months and nobody can reliably prepare against all opponents - partially because that would be too many games, and partially because you simply never get the full range of masters played locally. Perhaps an ETC style format would suit Malifaux better? Field teams rather than players - each member with one master, the captains choose who to field in given match... Takes a load off the individual players (they need to learn their master and the opponents the team plans to field them against) and ensures other masters get table time too (ESP. if you have to field each player at least once). Would be interesting to see once numbers get high enough to support something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Perhaps an ETC style format would suit Malifaux better? OMG I would love that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I think theres a UK event doing that in February. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 ETC & Ranking points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 OMG I would love that. I like team play in theory, but in practice it gets tricky to organize. There are people out there who just don't want to play on a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 For someone with intimate knowledge of the UK tournament scene I can't say there's any surprise in the breakdown of the field or those results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 For someone with intimate knowledge of the UK tournament scene I can't say there's any surprise in the breakdown of the field or those results. Care to expand on that? Or is it literally, "Neverborn are always the majority, and they almost always win."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Care to expand on that? Or is it literally, "Neverborn are always the majority, and they almost always win."? Seems as though thats whats being said. I don't have the same level of knowledge about the UK tournament scene, so no idea it that is true or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Don't have too much to add to things, other than I was one of the Outcasts in the top (wasn't 3rd though). Zee told me I was 6 VP Differential points off from 3rd place though, so I was close. Losing 0-8 to the 1st place guy kinda hosed me in that department, LOL. I played the Viks in 3 rounds, and then Levi in Round 4. I really wanted to play Levi more, but the matchups and the strategies just weren't good ones for me in that regard. Actually, Round 2 against Hookers with his Seamus Terrifying 14 aura would've been nice to have been running Constructs at that point, LOL. I played against Lilith in Turn 1, though I don't think he was a terribly experienced player (wasn't doing a grow list, and didn't know to keep Lilitu and Lelu close together). Then Hookers in Round 2, bunniegodd in Round 3, and then I don't know his name, but a relatively new Kirai player in Round 4. So, I thought it was cool that there were a fair amount of players in the tournament that were on the newer side of the game. That people weren't shy about jumping into a 'competitive' event, even if they weren't advanced players. Saw a pretty cool thing in Round 1 where the table next to me had Rasputina vs. The Dreamer, with Shared Turf War for the strategy. Not a single model killed in the entire game. Only maybe one or two combats period, as I think the Cerberus was the only thing that got a "bloody nose" as Longshanks put it. So that was cool to see, and be able to use for an example throughout the rest of the weekend when explaining to people how cool Malifaux is that you can win games without killing anything. My loss to bunniegodd certainly knocked me out of the running, and it was relatively silly. I kept all my crew way too close together and got annihilated by his Dreamer crew. It was actually quite funny though. The only 'action' my crew got to take in Turn 2 was simply Von Schill's Slow to Die action, for a melee attack, which managed to kill an Alp (I think...might have only hit for weak...I don't remember, LOL). Was a dumb mistake, as I haven't played against the Dreamer in probably 6 months. But Dan was a great sport about it, and he gave me some good pointers afterwards. To be fair, the Alps were only part of the problem in that loss, and the massive Terrifying on every piece thanks to the Dreamer's ability is what really did me in. Every piece in my crew ended up Falling Back during that turn, and then Coppelius' auto 3 Wds against a model that Falls back kicked in. That took down quite a few pieces in and of itself. Was all good though. Gave me an hour to kill, and some time to shop in the Dealer Hall. Oh, something I hadn't seen mentioned here yet. The strats they picked for us were all shared, as expected, but they were Turf War, Treasure Hunt, Claim Jump, and then Reconnoiter. So I thought it was cool that they stayed away from straight up Slaughter or Contain Power. And doing Unique Schemes, were you can only choose them once in a tourney...WAY tougher than you realize, especially if you're playing 4 Rounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Care to expand on that? Or is it literally, "Neverborn are always the majority, and they almost always win."? I kind of meant what I said. It's not suprising to see a high prevalence of Neverborn or them doing well. That being said I don't have a view as to what extent that is player skill, innate power or down to population. It's also difficult to control for the event format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunniegodd Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) "But Dan was a great sport about it, and he gave me some good pointers afterwards." My name is david, but i think everyone who talked to me got it wrong that weekend. Edited August 9, 2011 by bunniegodd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 The final 8 surprises me not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 But Dan was a great sport about it, and he gave me some good pointers afterwards. My name is david, but i think everyone who talked to me got it wrong that weekend. whoa bud, you need to tone it down a bit... that post count just got past 10, take it easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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