Stitched Together / drain souls and Slaughter

[Dolomyte]

I know this is a resolved thread, but frankly I don't care.

This ruling is terrible. Its not a democracy so we don't get a vote, but people surely should be allowed to voice their opinion on it. If I draw shared slaughter in a tournament with neverborn there is no reason not to take three stitched together where I get a 15 soulstone handicap. I can play lilith, camp soulstones and hide the rest of my models. The stitched will kill at least one model, and then all I need to do is drain souls with lilith and have a gaurunteed 2 vp to 0 victory. Bodyguard makes it 4, and toss in breakthrough for 6. the opponent could do NOTHING to stop that.

This is probably an issue with slaughter more then anything. but its a ridiculous ruling. It needs to be talked about some more on wyrds end.

[Mike3838]

I'm gonna have to side with Dolomyte here, it's very unfair.

It's fair enough saying "just deny your opponent his strategy and focus on schemes", but the Neverborn player has effectively denied you your Slaughter strategy VPs merely by taking 3 Stitched WITH NO NEED TO MAKE ANY FURTHER EFFORT. Compare that to the difficulty of having to play well enough to completely shut down your opponents Strategy in the average game, and it's very clearly unfair.

I would ask, why is it important (RAI) from the developers point of view that Stitched are uniquely powerful, over and above any other model in the game, in Slaughter strategies?

Mike

[Hookers]

Gotta throw in my hat with the OP on this one. It would have been very easy to say "you caused the model to use an ability which sac'd itself, therefore you essentially sac'd it and will get credit for it." I mean with the same logic they used for stitched you could argue jack daw can never be killed by your opponent since its the ability on his card that causes him to be killed, but I think I'll stay away from that one :puke:

also I agree with everyone saying that the problem is simultaneously with slaughter as a strategy. Even without the stitched shananigans its still pretty easy to kill one model and then start killing and sac'ing all your own stuff. Nurse anyone? Unkillable models that suicide into the other crew kill what they can and then are sacced afterwards? Sweet. Gremlins just reckless all day and shoot themselves (but that do that every game for every strategy so it's not exactly cheesy :five:).

In my opinion its the only strategy that should straight up not be used in a tournament.

Sure the obvious strategy is if you can't beat em join em, but that kind of sucks.

[Mergoth]

Entertaining read! Quite an attitude you have there!

I take it from looking over your uber list you don't play against Zoraida much then? Against a semi-competent player I doubt you'd get the Stitched close enough to do anything at all (Obey + Gamble your life = win either way). The hag is also more mobile than Lilith so you can forget hiding, and she's also harder to put down with Proper Manners and Bewitch.

I'm not sure what your playgroup is like, but I'm surprised that you plan to get away with all those steps on turn 2 unmolested.

[Mergoth]

Entertaining read! Quite an attitude you have there!

I take it from looking over your uber list you don't play against Zoraida much then? Against a semi-competent player I doubt you'd get the Stitched close enough to do anything at all (Obey + Gamble your life = win either way). The hag is also more mobile than Lilith so you can forget hiding, and she's also harder to put down with Proper Manners and Bewitch.

I'm not sure what your playgroup is like, but I'm surprised that you plan to get away with all those steps on turn 2 unmolested.

[Buhallin]

How about this for an alternative:

Treasure Hunt. Marker starts at the 18" mark, which means you've got to cover about 9.5" to get to it. Spirit moves up to the marker, then Kirai Swirls Spirits to swap it with a Shikome. Shikome activates, picks up the Treasure, casts Stalk Prey (which is the enemy master). Enemy master moves, and Shikome is pretty much back in the deployment zone before the end of turn 1. For extra fun, get a bonus walk from Datsue-ba or draw her back with Ikiryo's Draw Spirits.

If anything, that seems worse than the Stitched Slaughter. It takes only 3 activations and puts the Treasure in your opponent's deployment area, carried by a Spirit that can move 3-5 times a turn.

How is THAT fair???

Why is everyone so convinced that the Stitched Slaughter is utterly unbeatable and unfair, and needs to be fixed now Now NOW!!?

[Dolomyte]

Just this one: You cannot pass counters. If you take a look at Ressurectionists, they create their counters on the ground and they can use counters within x" for their spell precisely to bypass that restriction. Neverborn can do that with Grow/Mature, but not with other spells.

Because it is Black Shaman who gains the Blood Counter, it stays on him until he dies or until you use it up (then you drop it on the table and another model can pick it up).

That may be a minor thing, but it is a reminder: if something seems really broken to you, but others disagree, chances are you need to play more. Especially if you don't have full grasp of the rules yet.

sorry, I thougth the black blood shaman had an ability to pass a blood counter to someone else. Don't confuse me making a mistake without the book infront of me for not having a full grasp of the rules. He would infact drop them when sacrificied the second turn, so she could pick them up and bobs your uncle.

To Buh post. I only need to kill one model, the stitched do a minimum of 3 damage on gamble your life, which is enough to kill some 2 and 3 points models. your right, tougher stuff would be harder to kill, but again, I only need to kill one. Make up an ideal list to counter this tactic and I will gladly test it out.

I do agree that an extreme example may not be the best one, but its a very easy one to test. thats why I went to the upper limit of how you could cheese it out. If I wanted to be slightly more aggressive i could allow lilith to move forward and try to engage, with 10 soulstones she should easily be able to kill 10 points worth of models to make up her cost. not always, but most times.

as far as knowing that I am going to use a cheese list, I am not going to make that assumption. my reasoning is that you will know im playing neverborn, but not what master, and you will know the strategy. You may be playing someone you have played before, you may be playing someone from across the country at gencon. My list is realistic because I can build it without knowledge or concern of what the opponent is doing. Building an ideal counter list would be the player taking the risk that I'm going to be that big of a douchebag (and in a competetive environment, I am that big of a douchebag. You can ask anyone who has played me that I am respectful and fun to play against, but I don't pull punches as far as army construction. If I'm paying money I want to win).

[Dolomyte]

How about this for an alternative:

Treasure Hunt. Marker starts at the 18" mark, which means you've got to cover about 9.5" to get to it. Spirit moves up to the marker, then Kirai Swirls Spirits to swap it with a Shikome. Shikome activates, picks up the Treasure, casts Stalk Prey (which is the enemy master). Enemy master moves, and Shikome is pretty much back in the deployment zone before the end of turn 1. For extra fun, get a bonus walk from Datsue-ba or draw her back with Ikiryo's Draw Spirits.

If anything, that seems worse than the Stitched Slaughter. It takes only 3 activations and puts the Treasure in your opponent's deployment area, carried by a Spirit that can move 3-5 times a turn.

How is THAT fair???

Why is everyone so convinced that the Stitched Slaughter is utterly unbeatable and unfair, and needs to be fixed now Now NOW!!?

Because I can do the same thing with Perdita, Colette, Maybe Ramos, probably lilith, but more likely zoraida, and with gremlins. If I know we are playing shared treasure hunt, I can build an army to get the token back to, or damn near back to my deployment zone the first turn. If we are playing shared slaughter and i'm not neverborn, I'm wagering up to lets say 45 points of models (more for ressers, less if you build up your soulstone cache) whereas the stitched player is wagering 30 (or less, depending on cache)

[Buhallin]

To Buh post. I only need to kill one model, the stitched do a minimum of 3 damage on gamble your life, which is enough to kill some 2 and 3 points models. your right, tougher stuff would be harder to kill, but again, I only need to kill one. Make up an ideal list to counter this tactic and I will gladly test it out.

I don't think you even have to go to an idealized list to beat that. Even only needing to kill 1, 3 Stitched against an entire crew is a long shot.

Here are my standard crews, and honestly I think any of them would have a decent chance at taking down your Stitched under those conditions.

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Rasputina

--

6 Cache

Essence of Power [2ss]

• Ice Gamin
  [4ss]
  
  
• Ice Gamin
  [4ss]
  
  
• Ice Golem
  [9ss]
  
  
• Sabertooth Ceberus
  [8ss]
  
  
• Silent One
  [6ss]
  
  

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Kirai Ankoku

--

4 Cache

Lost Love [2ss]

• Datsue-Ba
  [7ss]
  
  
• Insidious Madness
  [4ss]
  
  
• Onryo
  [5ss]
  
  
• Seishin
  [2ss]
  
  
• Seishin
  [2ss]
  
  
• Seishin
  [2ss]
  
  
• Seishin
  [2ss]
  
  
• The Hanged
  [8ss]
  
  

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

2 Cache

Grave Spirit [1ss]

• Crooked Man
  [4ss]
  
  
• Madame Sybelle
  [6ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Shikome
  [8ss]
  
  
• The Hanged
  [8ss]
  
  

[Buhallin]

Forgot one of my current faves Am I remembering right that Gamble Your Life is a Wp duel?

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Marcus

--

4 Cache

Jackalope [1ss]

• Moleman
  [3ss]
  
  
• Sabertooth Ceberus
  [8ss]
  
  
• Shikome
  [8ss]
  
  
• Silurid
  [5ss]
  
  
• Silurid
  [5ss]
  
  
• Silurid
  [5ss]
  
  

[Dolomyte]

Yeah, WP > WP

[CalmPlains]

How about this for an alternative:

Treasure Hunt. Marker starts at the 18" mark, which means you've got to cover about 9.5" to get to it. Spirit moves up to the marker, then Kirai Swirls Spirits to swap it with a Shikome. Shikome activates, picks up the Treasure, casts Stalk Prey (which is the enemy master). Enemy master moves, and Shikome is pretty much back in the deployment zone before the end of turn 1. For extra fun, get a bonus walk from Datsue-ba or draw her back with Ikiryo's Draw Spirits.

If anything, that seems worse than the Stitched Slaughter. It takes only 3 activations and puts the Treasure in your opponent's deployment area, carried by a Spirit that can move 3-5 times a turn.

How is THAT fair???

Why is everyone so convinced that the Stitched Slaughter is utterly unbeatable and unfair, and needs to be fixed now Now NOW!!?

+1.

There are lots of specific situations where things seem overpowered, but they don't all belong to one model or one crew or one faction... there are strengths and weaknesses everywhere. This is the type of balance that Wyrd has achieved; lots of things can seem overpowered when viewed from one angle only.

The stitched together ruling makes sense to me!

[Dolomyte]

+1.

There are lots of specific situations where things seem overpowered, but they don't all belong to one model or one crew or one faction... there are strengths and weaknesses everywhere. This is the type of balance that Wyrd has achieved; lots of things can seem overpowered when viewed from one angle only.

The stitched together ruling makes sense to me!

Just out of curiousity, Why?

What about them makes you think that killing them should not count for you for slaughter?

Is it simply because they are being sacrificied and RAW is RAW?

[Calmdown]

Entertaining read! Quite an attitude you have there!

I take it from looking over your uber list you don't play against Zoraida much then? Against a semi-competent player I doubt you'd get the Stitched close enough to do anything at all (Obey + Gamble your life = win either way). The hag is also more mobile than Lilith so you can forget hiding, and she's also harder to put down with Proper Manners and Bewitch.

I'm not sure what your playgroup is like, but I'm surprised that you plan to get away with all those steps on turn 2 unmolested.

You, and other posting after you, entirely miss the point, as people often do in discussions like this where they let fanboyism overtake logic.

So what if it doesnt work against one list? So what if you can come up with lists for half of the masters in the game that can beat this strategy....why should the other half have to deal with it? Why should even one? Why should you ever have to build a list on the offchance that you come across some stupid tactic that shouldnt exist? It isn't playing the game. It isn't big and it isnt clever. But it's legal, and as such, people will do it. Maybe not in friendlies, but not every game is friendly.

Simply put, the situation should never happen. And simple rules changes can fix that.

Why games companies refuse to make simple changes to fix major issues, is beyond me. We constantly clarify and errata, we change stats between books and card releases, but we can't change a few specific scenarios that ruin *the entirety of certain games*? It's frankly ludicrous.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Calmdown

[CannonFodder]

Just out of curiousity, Why?

What about them makes you think that killing them should not count for you for slaughter?

Is it simply because they are being sacrificied and RAW is RAW?

I second this... If you spend the time and effort 'killing' the models and the model get a bonus reactivation you should still get the kill points because you killed it. Yes, models like desp. merc. can be used to give you a bonus in slaughter, but be 100% you get the slaughter benefit you need to sacrifice them before they get to do their damage. Otherwise you opponent has a chance to get a quick kill deny you the attack and to make it easier to win slaughter(point of strategy). The stitched together can be fully used with virtually no downside to risking them.

Playing the stitched together you get the full benefit of playing, and you opponent has to work to kill them but has virtually no benefit of killing them.

This discussion has been turning into a rant session. Stepping away from the ranting, I'd like to see people answer one question.

Do you think Playing Stitched together in Slaughter causes an unfair imbalance?

At the beginning of this thread all the Rules Wranglers & those for the stitched main counterpoint to this discussion was that you had the choice to reflip. Is there another counter point to this?

No one is arguing the ruling, this is brought up as a valid game balance issue. And I know I have been a head ache about ruling in the past wanting to have clear ruling and I appreciate the fact that the rules are clear and defined. But can anyone really say this is a fair balanced situation.?

[Dolomyte]

I can get heavy handed and dickish pretty quickly, I got pissed off in this thread because I had just spent the past few days arguing how malifaux works perfectly fine as a competetive game in tournaments (I still believe it does, 100%), and then, three months after the ruling, I was put on to this ruling and just flipped out.

I don't want my insane zeal in this thread to take away from the issue at hand. In reality, are there counters to this? Probably, I will playtest it and again encourage others, using my list or their own, just to see. But I deeply feel this (the stitched) are a competetive edge for Neverborn (I would go so far as to say my primary faction for tournaments) if the players draw slaughter or its part of a fixed format tournie.

But I think what alot of people have pointed out, is the even larger issue at hand is the competetive balance of slaughter. I think i've read from everyone on here, even those who are arguing the stitched arent that powerful, is that its still somewhat unbalanced and annoying, and that slaughter in general is an issue because of the mechanics of sacrifice.

If slaughter is left as only models the opponent kills or sacrifices, the stitched *though I do think the opponent should get the kill credit for does not die, it would not have triggered sans the opponent, same with poison* are uniquely powerful.

If slaughter was changed to include self sacrificing / killing, I pity the SOB who plays levi or hamelin or ressers

If you say that only the originally constructed crews count, but any model that is killed or sacrificed by either player counts for his opponent, Your probably the closest to fair, but ressers, ramos, and hamelin would probably take a bit of an advantage. (Less so then the stitched / saccing is currently IMO)

I would do option C myself, but if anyone else has a better idea for slaughter, spit it out.

[Mergoth]

You, and other posting after you, entirely miss the point, as people often do in discussions like this where they let fanboyism overtake logic.

So what if it doesnt work against one list? So what if you can come up with lists for half of the masters in the game that can beat this strategy....why should the other half have to deal with it? Why should even one? Why should you ever have to build a list on the offchance that you come across some stupid tactic that shouldnt exist? It isn't playing the game. It isn't big and it isnt clever. But it's legal, and as such, people will do it. Maybe not in friendlies, but not every game is friendly.

Simply put, the situation should never happen. And simple rules changes can fix that.

Why games companies refuse to make simple changes to fix major issues, is beyond me. We constantly clarify and errata, we change stats between books and card releases, but we can't change a few specific scenarios that ruin *the entirety of certain games*? It's frankly ludicrous.

Never been called a fanboy before. No, no, no, I think you are missing the point. A list is not unbeatable in a certain scenario - if a counter exists. Definition of not unbeatable. Unless my dictionary is lying.

My other point is that against someone who knows what they're doing the master plan, as laid out, will not work as they probably won't let you sit there and bash your own guys unmolested. Even if they do, you're left with Lilith all on her own against an entire crew - and even with loads of SS she'll run out of control cards and get mobbed. Shooty crews don't need to chase her, fast crews like Colette will corner her, tough crew like Seamus will drag her ass towards them and greet her with a nice focused Flintlock into the face.

This is not fanboyism. I do know what I'm talking about.

I know it's new and scary, but like everything else (Alp bomb anyone?) people just learn how to deal with it.

[Dolomyte]

Never been called a fanboy before. No, no, no, I think you are missing the point. A list is not unbeatable in a certain scenario - if a counter exists. Definition of not unbeatable. Unless my dictionary is lying.

My other point is that against someone who knows what they're doing the master plan, as laid out, will not work as they probably won't let you sit there and bash your own guys unmolested. Even if they do, you're left with Lilith all on her own against an entire crew - and even with loads of SS she'll run out of control cards and get mobbed. Shooty crews don't need to chase her, fast crews like Colette will corner her, tough crew like Seamus will drag her ass towards them and greet her with a nice focused Flintlock into the face.

This is not fanboyism. I do know what I'm talking about.

I know it's new and scary, but like everything else (Alp bomb anyone?) people just learn how to deal with it.

People wont know the master plan though, if you see my particular list on the table you might have a good idea about what is going to happen. *assuming you dont think you should get credit for killing the stitched*, but this is just as valid a tactic with

Pandora

Jack Daw

Dopple

2 Stitched

Something else.

I use that list in alot of strategies if I feel like running pandora, its very very effective. in slaughter, its even moreso.

Can that list be beaten, of course it can, ANY LIST can be beaten. that is not the point, the fact is the way slaughter is worded its unbalanced, and it needs to be fixed.

Edit - I also would like you to play this out, I might be giving too mcuh weight to the stitched, but I think you might be giving them too little.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm sorry, I had a lengthy answer but a misclick evaporated it.

There are so many things wrong with this thread I don't even know where to start, but just the most glaring problems:

1. You (not just OP, but also other posters sharing his view) essentially complain, that opponent can tailor a list for Slaughter objective, but you dismiss ability to tailor your own list?

I think you miss the point about Malifaux ruleset. It is about tailoring lists. Tailoring your list is always the first answer to anything (it needs more terrain being the second).

2. I can't believe how horribly wrong the artificial examples in this thread are. Theorycraft always runs the risk of willfully ignoring disadvantageous circumstances (rolls are always perfect, Control Hand is endless etc.), but this takes the crown. You propose to leave your master virtually alone, for 4 turns, against your opponent's entire crew, and you think the master won't get killed? And that after giving the opponent free reign for entire 2 turns? I'm sorry, but could you actually test it first before you complain about it? I'd love to see an actual battle report, against a competent opponent.

On a more constructive side: Basically, there's no problem with models that self-sacrifice, because there are other balancing factors:

It costs AP, SS and Control Hand cards to perform actions that allow you to grab points and still deny your opponent the kill. As you spend those AP on preparatory actions, you give your opponent a free reign - he gets activation for every activation you do, but if you spend your points on removing own models, you basically race with your opponent to see who kills your crew first. And he gets an advantage in activations number very quickly too. You really see this as a reliable path to victory?!? (never mind unbeatable).

As you sacrifice your models, typically, the crew shrinks while the opponent has free hand to move (there are crews that sacrifice models to grow, but then you also give your opponent more SS to grab, not less).He gets to position and prepare for his own plan virtually unopposed. If he has a fast crew tailored for killing the opponent (in other words, he actually came prepared for the shared Slaughter scenario), that practically means he gets the control of the map for free (so how are you going to run and hide?).

That's the cost and the balancing factor behind it - if you think you can allow your opponent to go unopposed for 2 turns and still win easily, you must be, more or less, inexperienced. Even more so, if you think you can do it without your crew, by hiding your master for the entire game. Other possibility is that for emotional or more sinister reasons you are proposing a biased argument in hope of convincing the designers to change the ruling you don't like, while knowing very well things are not as you paint them.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Dolomyte]

@Q

I appreciate your opinion, but its wrong. I don't even hate to say that. If you think its balanced and not an issue, you obviously have no idea what your talking about.

Yes, can you make a list tailored to deal with slaughter? OF COURSE YOU CAN. but if all my $$$$$$$$ is dead you don't get points for it, you cant win the strategy. Lilith has amazingly good defenses, Let's say that I go all out with her, I am 100% sure I can get 10 SS worth of of your models with her to counteract her loss.

Self sacrifice has no balancing factor in slaughter, because your eliminating your opponents ability to kill more soulstones worth of models then he kills of yours. Its not a hard concept to grasp, maybe its too foreign a concept that if player A can gain 30 of a resource and player B can only gain 10 of a resource player A has a better chance of winning

No one misses the point of the malifaux ruleset, we've all clearly stated we are in favor of tailoring lists for the specific strategy, HOWEVER, your arcanist army can't take stitched together. your guild army CANT TAKE stitched together, your outcast army CANT TAKE stitched together. They themselves shift the balance of slaughter, only one faction has access.

Does that explain it to you in a way you can grasp? need me to write it in word to make sure the grade level does not exceed 6th?

You don't know me, You don't know what I can or cannot do in Malifaux, stop assuming that im a $$$$$$$$ty player because we differ on viewpoints.

[CannonFodder]

I can get heavy handed and dickish pretty quickly, I got pissed off in this thread because I had just spent the past few days arguing how malifaux works perfectly fine as a competetive game in tournaments (I still believe it does, 100%), and then, three months after the ruling, I was put on to this ruling and just flipped out.

I don't want my insane zeal in this thread to take away from the issue at hand. In reality, are there counters to this? Probably, I will playtest it and again encourage others, using my list or their own, just to see. But I deeply feel this (the stitched) are a competetive edge for Neverborn (I would go so far as to say my primary faction for tournaments) if the players draw slaughter or its part of a fixed format tournie.

But I think what alot of people have pointed out, is the even larger issue at hand is the competetive balance of slaughter. I think i've read from everyone on here, even those who are arguing the stitched arent that powerful, is that its still somewhat unbalanced and annoying, and that slaughter in general is an issue because of the mechanics of sacrifice.

If slaughter is left as only models the opponent kills or sacrifices, the stitched *though I do think the opponent should get the kill credit for does not die, it would not have triggered sans the opponent, same with poison* are uniquely powerful.

If slaughter was changed to include self sacrificing / killing, I pity the SOB who plays levi or hamelin or ressers

If you say that only the originally constructed crews count, but any model that is killed or sacrificed by either player counts for his opponent, Your probably the closest to fair, but ressers, ramos, and hamelin would probably take a bit of an advantage. (Less so then the stitched / saccing is currently IMO)

I would do option C myself, but if anyone else has a better idea for slaughter, spit it out.

Slaughter is not unnecessary the problem Its the wording of the Stitched together. Otherwise models like the Steampuck arachnid swarm become useless from separating or merging.

I'd reword stitched so its something like this:

When Killed, it is not removed from play immediately. The model gains reactivate and the model is removed at the end of its next activation.

Just remove the word sacrifice, and the model keeps the flavor, but balances the model. OK the wording above will let it stay in play until next turn if it reactivated before hand, but its a reasonable alternative. The wording for Kill still applies and point awarded fairly.

[Dolomyte]

Actually Q, I disagree with your post so much I am going to discuss it piece by piece. Bold is my reply.

1. You (not just OP, but also other posters sharing his view) essentially complain, that opponent can tailor a list for Slaughter objective, but you dismiss ability to tailor your own list?

I think you miss the point about Malifaux ruleset. It is about tailoring lists. Tailoring your list is always the first answer to anything (it needs more terrain being the second).

No, My entire basis is that I can tailor my list for slaughter, As a neverborn player I can include 15 SS worth of models that you cant get anything for killing. I dont even have to do something special to set that up, its an inherent ability. you WILL do enough damage to kill them, I may or may not get a second activation, and at the end of the turn you get NOTHING. No other faction has access to that.

2. I can't believe how horribly wrong the artificial examples in this thread are. Theorycraft always runs the risk of willfully ignoring disadvantageous circumstances (rolls are always perfect, Control Hand is endless etc.), but this takes the crown. You propose to leave your master virtually alone, for 4 turns, against your opponent's entire crew, and you think the master won't get killed? And that after giving the opponent free reign for entire 2 turns? I'm sorry, but could you actually test it first before you complain about it? I'd love to see an actual battle report, against a competent opponent.

Again, it was an extreme example, It is probably not the wisest example. Instead, lets assume instead of hiding lilith takes her 11 soulstones and is going to go with the stitched to attemp to kill an opponents models. Don't need theoryfaux to tell you she can kill 10 SS worth of models herself. Shes very hard to kill, even more so with 11 soulstones.

It costs AP, SS and Control Hand cards to perform actions that allow you to grab points and still deny your opponent the kill. As you spend those AP on preparatory actions, you give your opponent a free reign - he gets activation for every activation you do, but if you spend your points on removing own models, you basically race with your opponent to see who kills your crew first. You really see this as a reliable path to victory?!? (never mind unbeatable).

As you sacrifice your models, typically, the crew shrinks while the opponent has free hand to move (there are crews that sacrifice models to grow, but then you also give your opponent more SS to grab, not less).He gets to position and prepare for his own plan virtually unopposed. If he has a fast crew tailored for killing the opponent (in other words, he actually came prepared for the shared Slaughter scenario), that practically means he gets the control of the map for free (so how are you going to run and hide?).

That's the cost and the balancing factor behind it - if you think you can allow your opponent to go unopposed for 2 turns and still win easily, you must be, more or less, inexperienced. Even more so, if you think you can do it without your crew, by hiding your master for the entire game. Other possibility is that for emotional or more sinister reasons you are proposing a biased argument in hope of convincing the designers to change the ruling you don't like, while knowing very well things are not as bad as you paint them.

NO, That is not a balancing factor, Killing my army is not the same as you killing my army, YOU DONT GET CREDIT FOR IT. I dont care if I have to take my pants off and dance in a circle while singing the eagles fight song, as long as I kill your stuff, but you dont get to kill mine, I win slaughter.

[Q'iq'el]

Lilith has amazingly good defenses, Let's say that I go all out with her, I am 100% sure I can get 10 SS worth of of your models with her to counteract her loss.

Lilith is my main master. Her survivability is not build on her high Df and Defence Trigger alone - she needs her crew to deny the opponent ability to strike her. She needs her Totem to snare the opponent or deny him LoS, while she uses her full AP to move. Without all that she's neither much faster or much more survivable than other masters.

The more you do to defend her (Defensive stance, Alluring etc.), the slower you get. The slower you get, the more of the opponent models will swarm you. It simply doesn't work.

A single Punk Zombie can dispatch her from full health to 0 within one Flurry even if you actually use Soulstones to defend, if your flips go bad. Any solid pure-damage model can do it. If she gets paralyzed or slowed down without escorts, she is dead. Even if you beef your pool to 10~12 Soulstones, they will be gone in one, max two turns, if the entire opponent's crew is on her with no further distractions. And you want her to survive 6 turns on her own. No joke.

And while she is good at killing stuff, she is not THAT good. She's great in finishing off wounded models and she's awesome when a Nephilim can finish off the models she has wounded, but you won't score too many points if you run around wounding things, without crew to support her attacks - after all your opponent has plenty of activations free to withdraw or heal up whatever she managed to hit.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

NO, That is not a balancing factor, Killing my army is not the same as you killing my army, YOU DONT GET CREDIT FOR IT. I dont care if I have to take my pants off and dance in a circle while singing the eagles fight song, as long as I kill your stuff, but you dont get to kill mine, I win slaughter.

You're willfully ignoring my point. I don't need to kill your entire crew. I need to catch one or two alps or stitched before you manage to sacrifice them (after all we go alternate activations, so I'm pretty sure I can catch something) and finish off Lilith after that. That's 12~15 points for me. I'm getting points of every model I catch before you sacrifice it, but you don't get any points for the actions you spent on these sacrifices (see what I did here?) and you end up with smaller and weaker crew on the top of that.

Lilith may kill a model or two before she goes down, if you use your Soulstones for that too (but then she'll go down faster), but because I, by your choice, have many more activations than you, I can pretty effectively deny her even that.

You're going to struggle to get these 12~15 points after sacrificing your crew, while killing Lilith with 30 points of models and a Soulstone pool I can dedicate almost entirely towards killing her (because you have nothing left that'd threaten my master) is not much of a challenge at all.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Dolomyte]

Obviously you don't understand the rules that we're discussing clearly Q, Perhaps you should read the stitched together card.

The rule in question is "Does not Die"

When you kill the model, or do enough damage to do so, the model instead stays alive, and if its already activated, gains reactivate. that model can NO LONGER BE KILLED, you can do a million more damage to it, but it will not die, at the beginning of the end phase it gets sacrificied and you get no points for it.

As for lilith, I did a quick check on the first book, and, accounting for things like armor and spirit, she can kill 44 of the 84 non master models. or a whopping 52% of available models, in a SINGLE hit. Those models range in soulstone cost from 2 to 8. and they are the bulk of "filler" models. IE Punk zombies, Austringers, Witchlings, Terror Tots, Gremlins.

For her being your main master, you might need to practice with her a bit more, she should be killing stuff. The greatsword gets + to the damage flip you know.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Q'iq'el]

As for lilith, I did a quick check on the first book, and, accounting for things like armor and spirit, she can kill 44 of the 84 non master models. or a whopping 52% of available models, in a SINGLE hit. Those models range in soulstone cost from 2 to 8. and they are the bulk of "filler" models. IE Punk zombies, Austringers, Witchlings, Terror Tots, Gremlins.

For her being your main master, you might need to practice with her a bit more, she should be killing stuff. The greatsword gets + to the damage flip you know.

As I said, theorycraft is all about ommissions and willfull neglect of relevant facts. You are clearly assuming you'll get severe damage on every flip and that your Control Hand is going to contain 10+ cards thorough every match you play.

To kill these 52% of models in one hit, you need to (1) catch them, you need to (2) hit them and then you need to (3) do severe damage to them.

To catch them you need to move closer to them. Since you gave the table control to your opponent for 2+ turns, you're now facing his crew positioned to deal with her - the models she can't kill easily grouped together and screening her so that they can get her even if she takes one out.

To hit them, you need to flip higher than them, which is random. There are plenty of models with Df 5~6 which stand very good chance of winning the random duel against her. To reliably hit them, you need to use your precious Soulstones (cheating isn't a factor, because your opponent can always cheat too) - as I said, you are burning them fast enough to keep her alive, so using them to hit melee minions only speeds up her demise.

to damage is hardly enough to guarantee severe damage. Every crew has access to some sort of equalizers here - Hard to Wound being probably the best. It's very easy to deny opponent a chance to cheat their damage flip and only slightly more challenging with that (though I'm not saying it isn't powerful). Normally of course your opponent would be busy dealing with your other minions and you'd be free to place Lilith where she is at advantage. That's what I do when I play her. You've just removed all your minions except for the Stitched though, and the remaining 3 stitched can be dealt with much easier than an entire crew working together.

So for every Strike you make, you must be ready to cheat 2 times at least and possibly burn a Soulstone. You are not having hand good enough to reliably kill models all the time. Not with Lilith. And if you burn your cards on killing my models, what will you cheat with when my hits land on her?

A 35 SS crew, focusing only part of its model on her, can easily land 6~10 Strikes on her every turn. You'll need to cheat some and Soulstone some too. Especially against Flurry you practically need to Soulstone/Cheat the first defensive flip, so that you can set the Disappear trigger off.

And there are such a hard counters to Lilith around there it isn't even funny. Any Ressurectionist worth his salt, for example, will bring Bête Noire for Slaughter. Pop her up after Lilith gets her first kill and focus on maintaining the Paralyzed up. It's almost impossible to avoid it, as it will be applied by Flurry with high Cb (possibly buffed even higher) and paired weapons, and merely a hit with 0 damage is enough to paralyze her. Paralyzed Lilith simply folds and dies.

Obviously it is easy to work around such hard counters if you have your Nephilim around, but that's what you throw away with no regard for consequences.

And we're taking about crews that would target her stronger side - regular combat, Df flips etc. Just think what would you do if you're targeted by Rst:Wp magic, with no minions around to keep the attackers busy and away from her.