Poisened Copellius

[JoeB]

So in our recent game a Showgirl poisened Copellius with a poison of 4. during his next activation he died as he only had 3 wounds left. So the question is about Copelius' ability that does 4 wounds to the model that killed or sacrifices him. Does the model who caused the poison take 4 wounds, or are the wounds avoided because he died from poison?

[Iamwyrd]

I believe so as the performer was the one who generated the posion effect.

[Buhallin]

I don't think so. Tokens don't have any sort of memory attached to them, they don't know where they came from or who applied them. They're just there.

Effects give targets poison tokens, and then they're done. So if he dies from the poison, he wasn't killed by any talent from any model.

[Mike3838]

In the thread Obey and Contain Power, the opposite was said. Zoraida gets credit towards a Strategy if she kills a master with Poison, so I see no reason why it shouldn't come back against her with Coppelius.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22513

Think a ruling would be helpful here.

Mike

[goblyn13]

No one would suffer damage because while he acquired the tokens from the showgirl, the poison on his activation is what killed him. So pretty much he'd do 4 wounds to the poison tokens.

[Buhallin]

<shrug> We don't have a solid Marshal ruling on the poison issue. It does say clearly that if a model generates an effect which kills a target, then they claim that kill.

But I'm not sure poison tokens are an effect. IMHO, the effect is to place poison tokens, and then the effect is done but leaves something behind - just like with Ice Pillars.

We've had similar discussions about falling back, and whether it counts as an effect, and what it means if it does. Same applies here. If poison is a lingering effect, then you could use Shrug Off to get rid of it - or Burning, or Blight, or any other token, for that matter. Same for Dispel Magic, if the Poison came from a spell.

[JoeB]

Thanks goblyn it seemed a little iffy to me, I went the safe route and let my oppnent put the 4 wounds on my showgirl. But is nice to know how it should work, Thank you.

[LoboStele]

Eh, yeah, I think some clarification is needed here. Because when it comes to things like points for Slaughter or such, it's been ruled that being killed due to Poison will grant points to the player whose piece inflicted the Poison damage.

If I were a TO and this came up during a game, I'd rule that the Performer takes the Wds. I can sort of see the logic for Goblyn's ruling, and I'm willing to follow that, but it makes it really confusing and difficult to explain to a new player why sometimes poison counts as a kill for the model that caused it, and sometimes it doesn't.

[Buhallin]

Eh, yeah, I think some clarification is needed here. Because when it comes to things like points for Slaughter or such, it's been ruled that being killed due to Poison will grant points to the player whose piece inflicted the Poison damage.

Can you find the ruling for this? I went looking for it, and couldn't find anything with a badge on it...

[Hookers]

that ruling is consistent with other similar rulings. the rules in malifaux generally only look to immediate causes rather than proximate causes. that is to say only the most recent cause of an effect is the actual cause of the effect for game purposes.

it is a similar situation to the fact that Stitched Together can never actually be killed, because the effect on his card says he is sacrificed. So you can never get credit for him because he sacrifices himself, even though one your models caused him to sacrifice himself.

it might be silly to be unwilling to go a single step back to determine an additional cause but that is how its been ruled in the past, and similar situations to this one work the same way.

Actually, looking at it closer, it seems they might want to rethink their rulings on this and similar issues. This ruling means that killing something with poison never grants you credit for the kill.

Proximate cause is usually a question for the jury, unfortunately the jury in Malifaux has been tampered with. I blame the Judge. Maybe the Governor's Proxy... but certainly not the Lawyer

Edited July 8, 2011 by Hookers

[Mike3838]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I'm just reading the RM and found this:

Pg 19

Tokens represent ongoing effects currently affecting a model.

Therefore poison tokens don't actually exist, they're just markers for an effect, and so saying "the effect is to apply the tokens, then the effect goes away" can't be true. The effect is an ongoing Poison effect.

Then on Pg 13 we have:

Models killed by an effect generated by another model count as being killed by that model for Strategy and Scheme purposes.

Now we're into strange territory, because it now sounds like you DO get credit for a death to poison if a Strategy or Scheme is involved, but not if it was just in the course of a game ie. Coppelius dying to Poison doesn't curse the poisoner.

Is this the correct way to interpret the words "for Strategy and Scheme purposes"?

Mike

Edited November 29, 2011 by Mike3838

[zatoichi98]

Just wanted to see if anyone had anything further on this topic?

[Ozz]

From reading mikes post tonight, i would say he has it right there. Read nothing else myself though, just this thread, but it sounds like the model causing the poison would get credit for the kill. Therefore get credit for the Strat/Scheme