Slow to die healing

[Imperator]

Hello,

When a model has both slow to die and use soulstone how does this interact with triggers like slit jugular?

This question was discussed here:http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18538 But seems to have been written before the rules manual which has a different definition of slow to die.

My understanding is that you can spend one soulstone to make a healing flip as a slow to die action, but I'm unsure if you actually have to heal one or more woulds to prevent the death from occuring (as in if Von Schill is on 10 woulnds and gets hit by slit jugular, and makes a healing flip that would heal 2 wounds would that be counted as healing for pourposes of slow to die?)

the other possibility that occurs is the killed effect from slit Jugular reduces you to 0 wounds, but I can't find anything in the rules manual to support this reading.

Thanks in advance.

[Ropetus]

"if this model heals 1 or more wd while resolving the action it is not killed and remains in play"

This rule only applies when the cause of death is being reduced to 0 wounds. If you die for any other reason, you get the Slow to Die Action but healing wounds won't remove the "killed outright" part of Headshot/Decapitate/whatever.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

This rule only applies when the cause of death is being reduced to 0 wounds. If you die for any other reason, you get the Slow to Die Action but healing wounds won't remove the "killed outright" part of Headshot/Decapitate/whatever.

-Ropetus

But Imperator is right that this difference is not spelled out in the rules themselves. It's partially because of the past rulings on the forums (which may not hold anymore), and partially because of how effects work in the game (which is, in this case, conjecture) that we play it this way.

If we were very RAW and ignored past rulings on the forum, we could read Slow to Die rule in such a way, that as long as you healed at least 1 Wd, you could remove the "killed" effect from your model no matter the source. It probably needs a revision, because every new player is going to miss on the rulings on the forum.

[mylastnerv]

Just wondering if we can get a confirmation if the mentioned Criid/DMercs combo works?

[Ropetus]

Just wondering if we can get a confirmation if the mentioned Criid/DMercs combo works?

This doesn't work because they are all already dead at the time when the mercs get the opportunity for healing flips.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

This doesn't work because they are all already dead at the time when the mercs get the opportunity for healing flips.

-Ropetus

Just a moment, are you sure it isn't an interruption? I've managed to check the books and I think the timing works out like this:

1. During Sonnia's activation she activates (0) Inferno. Normally it damages during Closing Phases, but if she gets killed before that, you apply double damage and immediately.

2. After her activation ends, someone attacks and kills her (by reducing her Wd to 0).

3. The attack duel is interrupted so that she can apply the Inferno pulse.

4. Inferno catches a Desperate Mercenary and does 6Dg killing it.

5. You interrupt the inferno to apply Last Noble Deed to Criid.

6. Criid does her Healing Flip and pops up her Wd above 0.

7. You remove Desperate Mercenary and return to resolving Inferno.

8. You finish damaging other models within the pulse's range and return to resolving the duel which killed Sonnia.

9. Sonnia's no longer at 0 Wd, so she doesn't get removed.

How is that different from Slow to Die?

Or do I have my timing wrong here? It's rather complex situation, because it involves 3 models and 2 interrupts...

[mylastnerv]

I know . . . it gets pretty crazy. It seems this breakdown makes it all make sense. It would be nice to see the exact point and reason it doesn't work.

[Ratty]

Well these days Slow to Die has this in it's rules "If the model is healed 1 or more Wd while resolving the Action, it is not killed and remains in play." where inferno doesn't. The reason Sonnia doesn't come back is she is already dead when the inferno goes off (it's a reaction to her getting killed), even if she gets Wds back she is already dead. Inferno has no special rule that stops the Death, unlike Slow to Die.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Ratty

[Q'iq'el]

Well these days Slow to Die has this in it's rules "If the model is healed 1 or more Wd while resolving the Action, it is not killed and remains in play." where inferno doesn't. The reason Sonnia doesn't come back is she is already dead when the inferno goes off (it's a reaction to her getting killed), even if she gets Wds back she is already dead. Inferno has no special rule that stops the Death, unlike Slow to Die.

I'm sorry, but Slow to Die is a reaction to getting killed as well. Slow to Die heals first and foremost thanks to it being an interruption to the killing effect, which removes the condition for the kill. It is no different than inferno in this particular situation.

The wording in Slow to Die seems to be a mere reminder and is already controversial enough. If Slow to Die is the only ability capable to actually prevent kill, because of its wording, then we must assume the wording is what prevents death - in that case it would prevent any death, including outright kills from Headshot or Slith Jugular.

However, the past rulings for these two abilities interpreted the Slow to Die wording as mere reminder that a heal during Slow to Die can prevent death, because Slow to die interrupts the duel which would kill the character if the Wd remain at 0.

That Headshot or Slit Jugular do not work that way (i.e. don't reduce Wd to 0) was the reason why they cannot be prevented (which implies the wording is a reminder, not an actual rule).

In such case Inferno is no different, because it too interrupts the duel that kills Sonnia Criid. It's no wonder it contains no reminder about healing, because it is not an action that would normally allow for a heal - only the Desperate Mercenary's unique ability can turn the situation into a heal, due to second interruption, at which point it becomes no different to Slow to Die.

[mylastnerv]

Good deal. That is what I wanted to see. I was unsure if the "prevents death" was just built into Slow To Die or was anytime a model dies and gets healed.

[mylastnerv]

I'm sorry' date=' but [b']Slow to Die is a reaction to getting killed as well. Slow to Die heals first and foremost thanks to it being an interruption to the killing effect, which removes the condition for the kill. It is no different than inferno in this particular situation.

The wording in Slow to Die seems to be a mere reminder and is already controversial enough. If Slow to Die is the only ability capable to actually prevent kill, because of its wording, then we must assume the wording is what prevents death - in that case it would prevent any death, including outright kills from Headshot or Slith Jugular.

However, the past rulings for these two abilities interpreted the Slow to Die wording as mere reminder that a heal during Slow to Die can prevent death, because Slow to die interrupts the duel which would kill the character. That Headshot or Slit Jugular do not work that way was the reason why they cannot be prevented (i.e. the wording is a reminder, not a relevant rule).

In such case Inferno is no different, because it too interrupts the duel that kills Sonnia Criid. It's no wonder it contains no reminder about healing, because it is not an action that would normally allow for a heal - only the Desperate Mercenary's unique ability can turn the situation into a heal, at which point it becomes no different to Slow to Die.

Oh dear . . . another good point. Kudos . . . I've sparked interesting debate. Let's keep it civil, (which we are) and get this resolved.

[Ropetus]

In such case Inferno is no different' date= because it too interrupts the duel that kills Sonnia Criid. It's no wonder it contains no reminder about healing, because it is not an action that would normally allow for a heal - only the Desperate Mercenary's unique ability can turn the situation into a heal, due to second interruption, at which point it becomes no different to Slow to Die.

Slow to Die happens when it is confirmed the model will die, but it won't die until after the Action. This is for the simple reason that dead models cannot take Actions so the model must be alive during the Action. You can heal a model that is not dead so you can save yourself during Slow to Die.

Inferno happens after the model is dead, but before it is removed from game. The model is already dead when Inferno triggers and you can't heal dead models.

If there was a way to give Sonnia Slow to Die and she is killed while under the effect of Inferno, she would first take the Slow to Die Action. If she gets healed and avoids death, Inferno won't trigger as she didn't really die.

Slow to Die is special because it interrupts the process of being killed, while those others trigger after the model is a confirmed kill.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

Inferno happens after the model is dead, but before it is removed from game. The model is already dead when Inferno triggers and you can't heal dead models.

With all the respect to your Marshal badge, I think you are not following the word of the rules here. I suggest it'd be better to reconsider the ruling:

Inferno happens immediately when the model is killed. That is *exactly* the same timing as Slow to Die.

Slow to Die:

"After this model is killed, immediately take and resolve 1 AP Action."

Inferno (v2 card):

"If this model is killed before the Closing Phase, immediately apply the effect and increase to 6 Dg."

As far as "confirmation" of death, there's no such rule or mechanic. The only rules that matter, I think, are the rules governing the interruption of actions:

The relevant timing rules from Page 6:

"If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused".

Inferno "pauses" the death exactly the same as Slow to Die due to identical wording.

Also:

"Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of the player's models".

Both Slow to Die and Inferno are immediate effects, aren't they?

There's really no difference between these two. I believe Mylastnerv has spotted a combination of events that may lead to preventing death just in the same way as Slow to Die does and possibly in more situations than just Inferno.

Consider this: if a Punk Zombie used its Slow to Die action to (1) cast the Slice and Dice spell and killed a Desperate Merc with it, the Merc could cast the heal on the Punk Zombie and thus prevent the death (because Slice and Dice must be resolved within Slow to Die interruption, and the Last Noble Deed must be resolved within Slice and Dice interruption, before you remove the Merc and return to Slow to Die).

Isn't it almost identical to what Sonnia Criid does?

I bet some other "on death" abilities that trigger immediately after being killed and do damage could be converted to healing with the help of Desperate Mercenaries. I'm not sure about Shatter, because it doesn't contain the "immediate" word in the rule, but it still has to be concluded before you remove the Gamin, so logically it too can trigger such a chain.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

Either way, to keep the Merc up till the end of the game you need to spend at least one Soulstone, and there is initial cost to pay. It is considerably more expensive trick, than using Slow to Die for a Healing flip.

[Ropetus]

With all the respect to your Marshal badge' date=' I think you are not following the word of the rules here. I suggest it'd be better to reconsider the ruling:[/quote']

You really put a lot of thought into the example, there really seems to be some loopholes in the wordings. The intent of the rules is that Shatter, Inferno, etc. should trigger when the model is really killed and there should be no return after triggering those (imagines the abuse when someone finds a way to give Sonnia Slow to Die, multiple 6 Dg Infernos is not really intended).

This is being discussed.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

Looking forward to seeing the conclusion of the discussion then. Thanks for the patience.

[mylastnerv]

It is always great when someone argues their side of the rules with incredible examples.

I don't see that happen very often.

The Punk Zombie combination seems awesome as well.

[CRC]

With all the respect to your Marshal badge, I think you are not following the word of the rules here. I suggest it'd be better to reconsider the ruling:

Inferno happens immediately when the model is killed. That is *exactly* the same timing as Slow to Die.

Slow to Die:

"After this model is killed, immediately take and resolve 1 AP Action."

Inferno (v2 card):

"If this model is killed before the Closing Phase, immediately apply the effect and increase to 6 Dg."

I saw this post on the order of resolution of triggers:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230593&postcount=40

It says that "if killed" and "after killed" are different triggers and go off at different points.

If killed only triggers when it's too late to save the model.

(just to pour more fuel on the fire)

[Hookers]

The wording in Slow to Die seems to be a mere reminder and is already controversial enough. If Slow to Die is the only ability capable to actually prevent kill, because of its wording, then we must assume the wording is what prevents death - in that case it would prevent any death, including outright kills from Headshot or Slith Jugular.

this is true enough, so that can't be the answer.

I saw this post on the order of resolution of triggers:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230593&postcount=40

It says that "if killed" and "after killed" are different triggers and go off at different points.

If killed only triggers when it's too late to save the model.

(just to pour more fuel on the fire)

and boom goes the dynamite :blowup:

I think that definitely clears this up because unlike Q's contention, the wording is not identical. Inferno is "if killed" and slow to die is "after killed." Nearly identical in the vernacular, but that list shows them as different points in time, which makes perfect sense as a way to control when those types of triggers go off and is exactly what has been done here.

its just too bad that list isn't in the manual (looks like it was made after the manual, but i'm not sure) because it is super clear and impossible to misinterpret. should probably sticky it somewhere

[Q'iq'el]

If that nuance in the wording is enough to make it an entirely different mechanic, then it at the very least deserves its own bullet point on the page 6, in the timing section (just like the difference in priority between the actions that may happen and actions that must happen).

It's not obvious from the wording alone, the intent isn't clear and the "if killed" doesn't sound in any way more definitive than "after killed". Actually "after killed" sounds much more irreversible to me, while "if" is a mere conditional clause.

Either way, it shouldn't pivot on obscure linguistic difference which actually doesn't even carry that much meaning unless it's specifically indicated in the ruleset.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[CRC]

To summarize the trigger slots:

• Before Damage
  
• During Damage
  
• Before Wounding
  
• When Wounding
  
• After Wounding
  
• When Killed
  
• After Killed
  
• If Killed
  
• After Duel

"When Killed" and "After Killed" seem redundant, given the way they fit into the resolution sequence.

"If Killed" is an anomaly, and is probably shorthand for "When removing this model from the game, if it was killed ..."

Unless there are dire timing needs for "When Killed" and "After Killed", I think they should both be "When Killed", and the current "If Killed" slot should be "After Killed".

Actually, even if there is a dire need for the current "When Killed" and "After Killed" timing, (and one that isn't covered by immediate/acting/defending), then the first of them should probably be changed to "Before this model is Killed" / "Before being kiled" (aka "Before Killed")

[Hookers]

It's not obvious from the wording alone, the intent isn't clear and the "if killed" doesn't sound in any way more definitive than "after killed". Actually "after killed" sounds much more irreversible to me, while "if" is a mere conditional clause.

I agree, but it is obvious after looking at that chart, which like i said its unfortunate that its not in the manual. it seems like it was made after the manual though.

also when killed and after killed aren't redundant. if for whatever reason the timing matters, then that is the timing. its as simple as that. such is the case in the current discussion, the timing matters.

[Chipacabra]

It seems to me that the rulings have always been that Slow To Die kicks in before the model dies, when the rule itself says that it kicks in after a model dies.

It sounds like the solution is to reword Slow To Die somehow so that it kicks in when a model is ABOUT to die.

[Q'iq'el]

It seems to me that the rulings have always been that Slow To Die kicks in before the model dies, when the rule itself says that it kicks in after a model dies.

It sounds like the solution is to reword Slow To Die somehow so that it kicks in when a model is ABOUT to die.

I believe that "after killed" is OK as wording. It's obvious from the beginning, if you understand the timing rules, that there's a point at which model gets killed, and a point later in time when it is removed from play. Being killed is not an irreversible situation and some models can deal with it and not die permanently.

"If killed" is much more iffy wording. I'm not sure if it is intended to happen when the death is irreversible, but before removal, or if it is an interpretation created later on.

@CRC: These trigger slots aren't "official", are they? Besides, you are not dealing with a "Trigger" slot here. You are dealing with an Ability set off when the conditions are met. The only thing you have to worry about, is if it is immediate or not, and both are immediate.

As I said, both these abilities are governed by the already quoted rules on page 6, not by timing rules for Triggers, which are part of the duel.

Even if we focus on triggers (which it is not), I think your list is somewhat imprecise.

There's definitely no slot "before damage". There are triggers that go off immediately (on hit, on miss or on declaration of the intent to use the trigger when suits are met), and there are triggers that are delayed to after damaging, after wounding and after killing. Then there's the last group of triggers, which give the model another action and are executed after the duel ends.

The Slow to Die and Inferno spell are not Triggers though and that entire distinction is meaningless here. The timing rules from page 6, which I've already quoted, is the only relevant rule as to when they interrupt the flow of the game.

The thread can now grow endlessly as we argue these points, but I'll simply wait for the official answer. I have presented my arguments and I don't think mixing other sets of rules (especially extrapolated ones) into that will help clear it up.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Ropetus]

Official ruling: You cannot heal dead models. Dead models cannot use any Abilities except those that separately state they trigger when they die.

Inferno and Desperate Mercenary trick does not work. Here is how it goes from Marshal discussion:

Sonnia Dies... Pulse goes out, pulse kills Desperate Merc, Desperate Merc can't heal Sonnia as she's dead. Desperate Merc gets removed. Sonnia gets Removed.

Same issue with blasts killing Rats and Rat Catchers at the same time:

If the Rat and Rat Catcher get killed by a blast, the Rat Catcher can't be healed as he's dead when the rats die and the rats don't get replaced as the Rat Catcher is dead. IE Death happen, then effects caused by the death, then model removal.

The Rat Catcher can only use the part referencing his own death on Voracious Rats. Effectively, multiple dead models can't interact with each other anymore.

Expect a new Slow to Die wording, which states the model takes a (1) Action instead of being killed, then dies after the Action if still confirmed death. This makes Slow to Die different from other abilities triggering from death in that the model is not yet dead during Slow to Die.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

Awesome solution - deals with the problem without any linguistic equilibristics. Thanks.