When does Reactivate End?

[Masque]

If a model gains Reactivate when does Reactivate go away? I can see three possibilities:

1. At the start of the model's second activation during a turn.

2. At the end of the model's second activation during a turn.

3. During the Resolve Effects step as normal for gained abilities.

All of these can lead to different situations where multiple Reactivations or other abilities are involved so it would be helpful to know which is correct (or if something else is correct).

[Q'iq'el]

Can you prove to me that Bite of Winter doesn't last the entire game? How do you do that? There's no proof that it doesn't last the entire game - it has exactly as much "proof" about its duration as Reactivate does.

Page 32.

There's no question Reactivate can't carry over to the next turn. Even if we assume that the wording "this turn" does not determine the normal duration of the effect, it would still be finished by the catch-all wording of the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase.

When and how Reactivate gets "consumed" is another question though. This is not a mechanic the rules really provide for - effects in Malifaux hardly ever end upon use and if they do, the rule itself contains the necessary mechanics. There's no general mechanic for effect "consumption" to fall back on, as far as I can tell.

So to streamline the discussion, we have several logically possible variants:

1). Reactivate lasts till the Closing Phase and can be used to activate for the second time, once per turn (but it doesn't "disappear" when activating for the second time). The only issue is its interaction with Paralyzed (i.e. they should cancel even after model activated two times, which is a glitch). On the other hand there's no problem with re-applying Reactivate, because while it lasts the effects with the same name do not stack.

2). Reactivate is consumed (=ends) upon second activation. Can it be applied again?

Even if it is applied again, it still won't last till the next turn, except for Buried models (it lacks the wording of the Slow, Fast and Paralyzed effects, which allows them to carry over to the next activation), but it may still be used to cancel Paralyzed.

3). Reactivate is consumed (=ends) upon second activation and cannot be applied again in the same turn. The remaining question is why?

IMHO the intended mechanic is 3). To be able to remove Paralyzed with Reactivate after model activated 2 times (and possibly with Reactivate already used up to activate for the second time) seems like a horrid loophole or glitch in the rules. But that's just experience speaking, I agree there seems to be nothing stating otherwise.

For 3 to become RAW the Reactivate wording should be changed to something like "can be applied and used only once per turn" and "ends on second activation or in Closing Phase, whichever happens first", which would be without precedent among effects (IIRC), but isn't an entirely alien mechanic to the Malifaux ruleset (we have to trace some once-per-turn weapons already)

For 2 to become RAW, we'd need a clear change to the rule, stating that Reactivate ends on the second activation.

1 is pretty much how the rules seem to work currently (i.e. model with Reactivate can cancel 1st Paralyzed that lands on it for the entire turn)

And BTW, Ice Pillars do not end in the Closing Phase, because they are Terrain, not Effect (Effect is something that changes model's state according to Page 19). Same for Illusionary Forest, for example (though it contains wording canceling the old Forest on recast, which differentiates it from the Pillars).

Edited May 17, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Buhallin]

And BTW' date=' Ice Pillars, do not end in the Closing Phase, because they are Terrain, not Effect (Effect is something that changes model's state according to Page 19). Same for Illusionary Forest, for example (though it contains wording canceling the old Forest on recast, which differentiates it from the Pillars).[/quote']

Yeah, but it wasn't always that way Take a look at the errata'ed pre-v2 description for Ice Pillars. That was the point I was aiming for.

So, just to make sure we're all on the same page now - there's really no question how the rule works any more, some people just don't like it. Right?

[poulpox]

So, just to make sure we're all on the same page now - there's really no question how the rule works any more, some people just don't like it. Right?

That's correct (option 1 of Qi'q'el) although more than not liking it, this smells like loophole discovery kind of moment, so I would hang on to this thread until RM come around.

[Chipacabra]

Whichever rules marshal gives us an answer, please keep in mind that if reactivate DOES end during the activation, it also matters if ends at the start or the end of the activation.

I believe that ending at the start of activation results in the fewest abusive maneuvers, but that's just my opinion of what would work best.

[poulpox]

Whichever rules marshal gives us an answer, please keep in mind that if reactivate DOES end during the activation, it also matters if ends at the start or the end of the activation.

I believe that ending at the start of activation results in the fewest abusive maneuvers, but that's just my opinion of what would work best.

Well couldn't you argue that a model which gains Fast for example, and uses it during its activation is still considered 'Fast' until closing phase for the purpose of Yawning for example?

And the issue remains regarding being able to cast again Reactivate on a model which already activated twice (something I believe not right) just to prevent/cancel paralyzed.

[Adran]

Well couldn't you argue that a model which gains Fast for example, and uses it during its activation is still considered 'Fast' until closing phase for the purpose of Yawning for example?

And the issue remains regarding being able to cast again Reactivate on a model which already activated twice (something I believe not right) just to prevent/cancel paralyzed.

No, Fast has a set finish time of the next activation.

Is the only potential problem with this that it makes the model immune to paralyisis for the rest of the turn?

Getting re-activation is tricky anyway, I don't see this as really a problem, especially as long as both people know this beforehand

[Chipacabra]

Well couldn't you argue that a model which gains Fast for example, and uses it during its activation is still considered 'Fast' until closing phase for the purpose of Yawning for example?

And the issue remains regarding being able to cast again Reactivate on a model which already activated twice (something I believe not right) just to prevent/cancel paralyzed.

I asked about fast/slow a while ago, and the rules clarification I was given is that fast/slow fall off at the end of the activation when they do their mojo.

[Masque]

I noticed that several Rules Marshalls posted to various rules threads earlier today. Can we get some attention here too?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Keep in mind there are large consequences to how they rule on this best to be patient, there is no question they have seen this thread.

[Mxyzptlk]

Only slightly related:

If you have Fast, and are given Reactivate before your first activation: Can you opt to use Fast on the second activation rather than the first?

[Masque]

Only slightly related:

If you have Fast, and are given Reactivate before your first activation: Can you opt to use Fast on the second activation rather than the first?

Fast works during your "current or next activation" according to the Rules Manual, so no, you can't wait.

[Masque]

Keep in mind there are large consequences to how they rule on this best to be patient, there is no question they have seen this thread.

Are we sure that is what is happening? Can I at least get confirmation from a Rules Marshall that you guys are thinking about the answer instead of just ignoring this thread?

[Q'iq'el]

Are we sure that is what is happening? Can I at least get confirmation from a Rules Marshall that you guys are thinking about the answer instead of just ignoring this thread?

Yes we are sure. For as long as I've been visiting these forums, I've never seen a rules question thread that got ignored.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If a model gains Reactivate when does Reactivate go away? I can see three possibilities:

1. At the start of the model's second activation during a turn.

Until the model is activated its second time, it has the effect of Reactivate on it. As soon as it is activated its second time, Reactivate drops off. If it receives Reactivate again, it will not be affected by it at all and will not carry over to its next Activation.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Thanks for the ruling. Makes the most since.

[Masque]

Until the model is activated its second time, it has the effect of Reactivate on it. As soon as it is activated its second time, Reactivate drops off. If it receives Reactivate again, it will not be affected by it at all and will not carry over to its next Activation.

Thank you very much for answering. Just to be clear, it ends at the start of the model's second activation or at the Resolve Effects step, whichever comes first? Also, Reactivate after a second activation is merely a Paralyze shield. Correct?

[Mxyzptlk]

Until the model is activated its second time, it has the effect of Reactivate on it. As soon as it is activated its second time, Reactivate drops off. If it receives Reactivate again, it will not be affected by it at all and will not carry over to its next Activation.

By this, does it also not get the benefit of paralysis shielding? I suspect it will rarely come up, since it's sort of a waste of a reactivate, but I can imagine once in a while it is important enough that a model go next turn that you might put a reactivate shield on it this turn.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

By this, does it also not get the benefit of paralysis shielding? I suspect it will rarely come up, since it's sort of a waste of a reactivate, but I can imagine once in a while it is important enough that a model go next turn that you might put a reactivate shield on it this turn.

I covered that already.

At the start of the second Activation. And no, it cannot be affected by Reactivate again in the round. Not even as a Shield.

[Mxyzptlk]

Sorry, the posts came fairly rapidly, so I was a message behind.

[Masque]

At the start of the second Activation. And no, it cannot be affected by Reactivate again in the round. Not even as a Shield.

P.S. Thank you for your patience.

I appreciate all the clarification. While I accept that this is how things work I think it a bit strange that Reactivate isn't allowed to carry over to future turns in the same way as Paralyze, Fast, and Slow since it is a very similar effect.