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When does Reactivate End?


Masque

Question

If a model gains Reactivate when does Reactivate go away? I can see three possibilities:

1. At the start of the model's second activation during a turn.

2. At the end of the model's second activation during a turn.

3. During the Resolve Effects step as normal for gained abilities.

All of these can lead to different situations where multiple Reactivations or other abilities are involved so it would be helpful to know which is correct (or if something else is correct).

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Thank you very much for answering. Just to be clear, it ends at the start of the model's second activation or at the Resolve Effects step, whichever comes first? Also, Reactivate after a second activation is merely a Paralyze shield. Correct?

At the start of the second Activation. And no, it cannot be affected by Reactivate again in the round. Not even as a Shield.

P.S. Thank you for your patience. :)

Edited by WEiRD sKeTCH
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Rules Manual pg 34:

Reactivate: This model may activate a second time this turn during the normal activation sequence. A model may only activate a second time through Reactivate once per turn.

reactivate only grants a model the ability to activate again ONCE per turn. So a model will only ever gain one additional activation a turn.

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That is beside the point. For example, if it lasts until the end of the model's second activation in a turn then if you give a model Reactivate, activate it twice, then give it Reactivate again it would still have Reactivate next turn. Depending on when it goes away affects quite a few situations I can think of so I want to know the answer to my original question.

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If a model gains Reactivate when does Reactivate go away? I can see three possibilities:

1. At the start of the model's second activation during a turn.

2. At the end of the model's second activation during a turn.

3. During the Resolve Effects step as normal for gained abilities.

All of these can lead to different situations where multiple Reactivations or other abilities are involved so it would be helpful to know which is correct (or if something else is correct).

To help.

A turn can only end AFTER all models are completely done activating.

Therefore Reactivate will ALWAYS end in the same turn it is acquired.

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And again as stated in the quote:

A model may only activate a second time through Reactivate once per turn.

Wow, thanks for giant unhelpful text. I do not disagree with this statement in any way. Did you actually read my posts?

Here's another example of why it's important when it goes away. Let's say a model gains Reactivate and then activates twice during a turn. Then the model gets Paralyzed. If it still had Reactivate until the Resolve Effects step then Paralyze would be cancelled. If Reactivate went away at the beginning or end of the model's second activation then it would be Paralyzed and miss it's activation next turn.

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Wow, thanks for giant unhelpful text. I do not disagree with this statement in any way. Did you actually read my posts?

Here's another example of why it's important when it goes away. Let's say a model gains Reactivate and then activates twice during a turn. Then the model gets Paralyzed. If it still had Reactivate until the Resolve Effects step then Paralyze would be cancelled. If Reactivate went away at the beginning or end of the model's second activation then it would be Paralyzed and miss it's activation next turn.

I'm on the "At the start of the model's second activation" fan club because that just works easiest.

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. Let's say a model gains Reactivate and then activates twice during a turn. Then the model gets Paralyzed. If it still had Reactivate until the Resolve Effects step then Paralyze would be cancelled.

not quite sure if I follow here but I'll work through it.

model A activates.

-> model A gains reactivate and activates a 2nd time

->model A gets paralyzed (which will drag over to its next activation, ie next turn)

Its first reactivate would not help here at all as it has effectively been used up. So this would be either 1 or 2 in your first post.

But if you cast reactivate on model A again then that would immediately cancel out the paralyzed (to the best of my knowledge).

Were you to then cast reactivate on the model again it would have no effect as the model has already been activated twice.

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But if you cast reactivate on model A again then that would immediately cancel out the paralyzed (to the best of my knowledge).

I'm not sure that's legal: since the model has already activated twice it is therefore not a legal target for reactivate anymore, I think. The only way to get rid of Paralyzed would be in the next turn, the paralyzed model forfeits its activation then reactivate is cast to make the model take a single activation that turn.

EDIT: this goes also for the 2nd post of the OP. Reactivate does not carry over to the next turn. If a model has activated twice, it cannot receive reactivate again this turn so your option 2 doesn't work (either because it isn't a legal target anymore for that spell or it will be targeted but the effect will fizzle since the model isn't a valid choice, not sure which one but the model will not get receive reactivate anymore this turn). I'm not sure option 1 and 2 of the OP are much different for the reason I've given. It's not option 3 since once the model has finished its 2nd activation, it is considered reactivatED, the effect is over.

:)

Edited by poulpox
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I'm not sure that's legal: since the model has already activated twice it is therefore not a legal target for reactivate anymore, I think. The only way to get rid of Paralyzed would be in the next turn, the paralyzed model forfeits its activation then reactivate is cast to make the model take a single activation that turn.

EDIT: this goes also for the 2nd post of the OP. Reactivate does not carry over to the next turn. If a model has activated twice, it cannot receive reactivate again this turn so your option 2 doesn't work (either because it isn't a legal target anymore for that spell or it will be targeted but the effect will fizzle since the model isn't a valid choice, not sure which one but the model will not get receive reactivate anymore this turn). I'm not sure option 1 and 2 of the OP are much different for the reason I've given. It's not option 3 since once the model has finished its 2nd activation, it is considered reactivatED, the effect is over.

:)

Nothing about the Reactivate rule says you can't gain it more than once during a turn. You just can't actually use its (normal) benefit more than once during a turn.

I'd really like to get an actual answer to my original question, preferably from a Rules Marshall or someone with a rules quote or link to a previous forum post. Please don't tell me again that you can't activate a model more than twice in a turn, I know this, it was never in question or dispute.

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Nothing about the Reactivate rule says you can't gain it more than once during a turn. You just can't actually use its (normal) benefit more than once during a turn.

Another situation would be giving a model that had both activated, and then reactivated, a second instance of Reactivate just before burying it.

It would come back to the table with reactivate, which it would be able to use as iut would be a different turn.

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Activate->Reactivate->Activate->Reactivate->Bury

Would probably mean the model can carry the last reactivate to the next turn.

But I don't see how you can take that last Reactivate without Burying the model. It will simply end in the Closing Phase (unlike Paralyze, Fast and Slow there's nothing in the wording that'd make it carry to the next turn. On the contrary, the wording seems to specify the turn in which the effect may apply.).

Edited by Q'iq'el
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Rules Manual page 34

Fast: This model recieves 1 additional general AP during it's current or next activation, whichever cones first.

Reactivate: This model may activate a second tine this turn during the normal activation sequence.

Seems clear to me. Fast carries over to the following turn if you already activated. Same for Slow and Paralyzed.

The effects of reactivate only apply in the turn you receive reactivate. You can activate a second time through reactivate only once in the turn. Any further Reactivates cannot be carried to the next turn.

Even if you bury the model, Reactivate wont be there when you come back, due to the effects only applying in this turn (the turn you received Reactivate).

Mike

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Page 34 RM.

"Reactivate. This model may activate a second time this turn during the normal activation sequence. A model may only activate a second time through Reactivate once per turn."

Bold face from the RM, not intended to make you question my emphasis.

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Fast, slow, reactivate, paralyze are all one shot uses. Once activation is over where those effects were usable, than after those effects fall off. Now paralyze is a little trickery because you forfeit, that means it falls off, but the other effects don't. A model who gains fast in turn and reactivate only get fast once. Not for both.

If you recieved reactivate and use it, it falls off if you get paralyzed later in turn. I see nothing preventing reactivate from canceling it out later in turn. as for it carrying over to next turn you can't be a legal target fot it if model already activated twice this turn. paralyze is the the exception since you are canceling effect. Kinda same way fast and slow cancel each other.

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Nothing about the Reactivate rule says you can't gain it more than once during a turn. You just can't actually use its (normal) benefit more than once during a turn.

That's right. However Reactivate stipulates that the gained activation has to be taken the same turn, so I'm a bit confused as per how you could have some use to have gained the Reactivate without being able to use it? Is it for subsequently burying the model as suggested in the other threads?

Sorry I'm not a Marshal, I just like to discuss :)

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That's right. However Reactivate stipulates that the gained activation has to be taken the same turn, so I'm a bit confused as per how you could have some use to have gained the Reactivate without being able to use it? Is it for subsequently burying the model as suggested in the other threads?

Sorry I'm not a Marshal, I just like to discuss :)

Like was mentioned before, even if you've already gone twice, just having the reactivate ability will protect you from one dose of paralyze, since the reactivate and paralyze will cancel each other to nothing.

Another benefit: Consider any of the models that split apart, like the mechaspider swarm or coryphee duet. Give them reactivate. They activate a second time, then during that second activation they split apart. Each of the new creatures will inherit the reactivate effect.

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These effects like fat have specific wording.

Fast and Slow do. Paralyzed does. Reactivate doesn't.

The timing on Reactivate seems to be unspecified, and hence standard - it goes away during the closing phase. Giving a model Reactivate multiple times doesn't do anything, because a model with Reactivate can activate twice during a turn - no matter how many times you can activate twice, it's still only twice ;) Nothing in the ability says it goes away after the second activation.

So by a strict reading, it seems like each of the following:

(Model has not activated yet)

1. Model gets Paralyzed

2. Model gets Reactivated

3. Paralyzed and Reactivate cancel each other out, model can activate normally

1. Model activates

2. Model gets Reactivate

3. Model gets Paralyzed

4. Paralyzed and Reactivate cancel each other out, model doesn't get another activation

1. Model activates

2. Model gets Paralyzed

3. Model gets Reactivate

4. Paralyzed and Reactivate cancel each other out

5. Model gets Reactivate

6. Model activates

1. Model activates

2. Model gets Reactivate

3. Model activates

4. Model gets Paralyzed

5. Paralyzed and Reactivate cancel each other out

Not entirely sure all that's intended, but as long as there's nothing changing the end time of Reactivate (and there doesn't seem to be) that's the strict reading, IMHO.

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Yes but you still show no proof that reactivate stays on after usage.

That's the OP's question, isn't it?

Fast and Slow have been ruled to fall off at the end of the action in which they happen. Paralyze has been ruled to fall off when you take the non-activation, with no particular mention of it's at the beginning or the end since it doesn't matter for Paralyze. Reactivate hasn't gotten a ruling.

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Strict reading doesn't mean rai not mention, reactivate is listed in em next to fast slow and paralyze so it is fair to say reactivate is and its end point are related to all the effects listed. Raw might not match, rai seems clear. Reactivate falls off after models second activation ends. Granted a rules marshal would be great to clarify, but it would complete cheese if after reactivating the second time, you got paralyzed that the effects would cancel.

Example gremlins does fast effect, finishes activating gets hit by a spell that slows him, he would be slow upon his next activation. It is clear rai that reactivate be treated the same way. Reactivate after second activation should not make a model to the first paralyze effect it is hit with.

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That's the OP's question, isn't it?

Fast and Slow have been ruled to fall off at the end of the action in which they happen. Paralyze has been ruled to fall off when you take the non-activation, with no particular mention of it's at the beginning or the end since it doesn't matter for Paralyze. Reactivate hasn't gotten a ruling.

Correct I agree with you entirely, my point is the absence of proof proves nothing more than the absences of proof. The absence of proof that I had tomatoes soup for lunch today does not mean I did not have tomato soup today for lunch.

On side note he tomato soup was delicious.

I agree this needs rm just like others.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth
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Granted a rules marshal would be great to clarify, but it would complete cheese if after reactivating the second time, you got paralyzed that the effects would cancel.

Yes this seems not right at all. My feel is that targeting a model to Reactivate it should not be possible if the model has already activated twice. On the other hand this seems a way to counter the powerful paralyzing effect, so maybe this is meant to be? This just seem weird though.

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Strict reading doesn't mean rai

Of course it doesn't. But in my experience RAI = "Rules As Iwantthemtobeplayed". There isn't really any clear intent except that you think they intended it to work the way you think it works.

my point is the absence of proof proves nothing more than the absences of proof.

Can you prove to me that Bite of Winter doesn't last the entire game? How do you do that? There's no proof that it doesn't last the entire game - it has exactly as much "proof" about its duration as Reactivate does. And White Out is after Ice Pillars in Rasputina's spell list - obviously anything in the same block as Ice Pillars lasts the rest of the game since Ice Pillars does too, right? The rule happening to be in the same block doesn't mean anything.

I'm not going to argue intent, and if it's meant to end some time other than the end of phase (as the rules are printed) then I'm sure Kel or Sketch will clear it up. But in the meantime, I think the actual interpretation of the rules is solid.

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