Rampant Semi-Baseless Book 3 Speculation

[nilus]

There should be a "Von Schill only" Totem, he's the only master/henchman without one. (Maybe Ludwig ?)

Isn't that the student of Conflict . I don't think he needs anyone better.

Plus a Von Schill only totem would be odd since Von Schill himself doesn't have any spells.

[ukrocky]

I really, really don't want wyrd to make the game *that* much more complicated, as it's already pretty complicated to get into as it is atm, and I don't feel adding more complications in would improve it neccesairly. Expansion would be good, addition could be bad...

[nerdelemental]

I really, really don't want wyrd to make the game *that* much more complicated, as it's already pretty complicated to get into as it is atm, and I don't feel adding more complications in would improve it neccesairly. Expansion would be good, addition could be bad...

Can you elaborate on your position?

(no snarkiness - it's good to get the right kind of criticism from the players)

What's good "expansion" but not bad "addition"?

[ukrocky]

Ok, so, to sort of see my point I had a mini rant at hordes and warmachine a week or two ago, here;

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=85763

Basically, akin to malifaux, I love the rules of hordes and warmachines but I've found, as a tournament player, it's massively hard to get into.

Malifaux is OK atm as it's a relatively small game however if anyone's asked my opinion on malifaux, I've always said I love it but it's by far the most complicated game I've played. I mean with fantasy/40k/gw stuff etc there's only so much per unit, most universal, and I've never struggled to remember everything for my army in each game. However with malifaux, every model has so many different actions, both general and specfic, available as well as triggers, spells, different weapons etc.

I don't want to see malifaux become inaccessible to beginners by being more complicated then it is now. I've been playing malifaux roughly 2 years, not full on every week style, due to uni, but I've been to a few tournaments and play regularly enough for someone with not much time but I struggle to remember many of my models rules, as I like picking up new crews, let alone my opponents. In addition I have to keep asking/checking the rulebook on universal rules which is fair enough.

IMO a bad expansion would be one whereby the game is even more difficult to introduce beginners into, for example, with avatar pandora floating around I can imagine that something will happen with them. Introducing a '2nd master per master' would IMO be bad, as it takes beginners over 10 games to get used to their master without anything else.

A good addition would simply be more units, as well as optional game expansions. Eg, apocalypse for 40k, has optional rules, still gets played and is essentially a more confusing (but still simple) version of the simplistic 40k. More units/masters/factions is the obvious one, and it follows the same route as most other mini games.

I don't feel malifaux needs anymore adding to it, in terms of rules. With puppet wars being a separate game, if something is to be done with avatars, I would rather see it as an optional extra or a different game somehow rather than make the game more complicated for beginners.

People who have been playing malifaux through book 1 and 2 (the majority of the forum) could probably cope with a rules expansion however, people who are new to the hobby already have such a steep learning curve (which will only get greater as more units come into the game, heck there's some units I have no idea what they do still!), that I don't feel making the core rules larger and more confusing would be beneficial.

I know I've repeated myself a fair few times here, but I'm hungover and tired, and I can't really think straight. Damn Jaeger and ale.

I'm happy to elaborate more on any points which I've said, providing I can think ogf the words and someone asks...

[Sliver Chocobo]

Cannot wait for Avatar Somer.

Fatter with a bigger gun.

His nickname around for here for his avatar is pimp teeth jones

Edited April 24, 2011 by Sliver Chocobo

[Sliver Chocobo]

A totem for Victoria, one only she can use

[pigi314159]

Can you elaborate on your position?

(no snarkiness - it's good to get the right kind of criticism from the players)

What's good "expansion" but not bad "addition"?

Along those line...

I feel a good expansion is the or as opposed to and.

So...for instance..."I could do this...or this..." as opposed to "I could do this and this and this and this."

Part of the charm of any game to me is simplicity and elegance. Combos tend to be obvious and overt as opposed to say...Magic's infinite possibility of everything it seems as of late.

So to be more concrete:

Let's look at Hamelin (as written in Book 2, don't have the box so I'm limited). His crew revolves around rats. The line of thinking of "Attack with a rat, attack with all rats, use rat catcher to kill all rats, summon equal number of rats, attack with all rats, etc." is a line of and, and, and. You are punished from deviating from the chain because you don't get max damage. I feel this problem shows up when a model only has one effective option (false choice between options as it were). I mean really, what else do you do with a rat other than attack?

Another example, to a degree...Kirai. Walk forward, summon Ikiryo. Next turn, absorb Ikiryo, resummon Ikiryo, reactivate Pitiful. Granted there are some situations and strategies where this is not optimal play, but if you are trying to hit Kirai's scheme, why aren't you doing this every turn?

Compared to say...my staple unit...a Rotten Belle.

I could Lure if at range, I could Undress to set up another unit to attack, I could get in melee to provide screening, etc. THis is "Or...or....or" as opposed to the Rats "and...and...and."

The difference to me is that a long chain of ands leads to unfriendliness to new players as you have to memorize long chains of actions and their counters. (Remember being whipped by your friend who played Mortal Kombat for 2 weeks before you saw it? And pulling off every cool move in the book?) Where as a chain of ors creates interesting situations where certain options are more viable, mistakes can still be made, but are not instantly punishing.

How can this be done in Malifaux:

1) Create units with more than one viable thing to do per turn. I feel Book 1 was especially good with this. Book 2 started to deviate a little in some cases. Rats being the most extreme, but to a degree even Kirai.

2) Synergy between units should be done with more options or in chains that aren't as long/alpha strike-y. Whereas a Belle Lures then Seamus shoots is damaging, it is easily counterable and short in length. The rat trick, alp bombs, marionette swarms, a more complicated longer and frankly, to me, boring to watch. This ties into 1) a little bit as the best option with these guys is to initiate their chains of alpha strike. But for instance if rats gained the ability to say (not claiming anyone of this balanced) make it easier for Hamelin to land something on its target but cause no damage, it might create more interesting choice.

3) Increase the pool of mechanical and flavor fitting units at all point ranges. Having "standard" lists is a symptom of not enough unit choice to me. At 25 ss, here's what you see: Seamus, belles, sybelle, totem done. McM, Sebastian, dogs, nurse done. Kirai, datsue-ba, lost love, onryo, seishin and maybe gaki done. Kirai's is even enforced with her recruitment restrictions. While Book 2 attempted to remedy this issue with more units, some of the high point stuff is prohibitively expensive. Why would you ever field Snow Storm? Ashes in Dust? Molly? In their respective crews, at 25ss they are way too expensive.

One thing I really loved about Book 1 was how many of the rank and file were mini versions of named stuff. Belles was mini Sybelle, Crooked Men mini Mortimer, Witchling Stalkers mini Cridds, etc. I think taking that same concept but to the new batch of stuff would be a nice variety. (So...for instance...a Belle that is so loaded with blood that she explodes on death. has very little combat utility, but can paralyze people) would help liven things up in crew choices a bit.

That's my thoughts.

[Necromorph]

I agree with you Pigi, but on the topic of "standard lists" I think all games suffer from that. There are certain combos that, through community play and trial-and-error stand out as more powerful. In other games there are very clearly defined "tournament" or "cookie cutter" lists that are seen very often in competitive play. It's a natural result of players testing combo's until they find something that is powerful enough to take on all comers and then it is abused until a counter is found, and then the cycle repeats itself.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Nekima as a Henchman

[emissary]

I do agree that the game doesn't need some over the top combos. I do think that the alp bomb and some pandora builds toe the line, but aren't over it yet. What the game doesn't have is the tiny balls, snap your fingers, half your opponent's army dies and all of your opponent's fun dies too ability that warmachine/hordes possesses. And for that I'm grateful. Of the 10 biggest negative game experiences I've had in abour 18 years of minatures gaming, 9 of those came from good old privateer press. Never really understood why making it automatic that your opponent lose one turn out of 6 or just removing any possibility of you missing with attacks for a turn was a good thing. As long as malifaux doesn't get abusive like that I think it's a good thing.

That goes double when you have over 100 warcasters/warlocks and each of them has a different way to bend you over the table that you have to keep track of.

[Jonas Albrecht]

In defense of Book 2, the two Masters we own (C. Hoffman and Colette duBois) are fun precisely because of their complexity. A year later, Tuesday is still discovering new tricks to pull with her Showgirls and a month in, I'm absolutely gonzo about the things I can do with the Constructs of Order. Its because of the complex framework built around synergy with a type of minion that I'm looking forward to my next game with C. Hoffman, and why Lady Justice will probably never grace my side of the table again.

[Devon_v]

What the game doesn't have is the tiny balls, snap your fingers, half your opponent's army dies and all of your opponent's fun dies too ability that warmachine/hordes possesses.

Mk I or II? Honestly most stuff like that is very 'caster specific, and if you aren't fully aware of what Strength of Arms, Menoth's Wrath, Landslide, or Icy Gaze do, that's as much a player's own fault as not understanding what The Dreamer/LCB, Pandora/Woes, Colette/Cassie/Cory, or Perdita/Family do.

I find a poor initiative flip combined with most all buffs ending with the previous turn can cost you a lot of models in a short period of time in Malifaux. Companion can be just as alpha-strikey as any feat in Warmahordes, and real gunpowder is way more effective than the substitute crap they have in Immoren. With certain strategies, loosing a couple of models can essentially be a game over for you. I've also seen a Warmachine game won by the last model standing on a player's force after he got hit by a major rush. What both games have in common is the possibility of taking a huge hit and still coming back to win, and that's a big reason why I love them both.

[emissary]

Mk I or II? Honestly most stuff like that is very 'caster specific, and if you aren't fully aware of what Strength of Arms, Menoth's Wrath, Landslide, or Icy Gaze do, that's as much a player's own fault as not understanding what The Dreamer/LCB, Pandora/Woes, Colette/Cassie/Cory, or Perdita/Family do.

I find a poor initiative flip combined with most all buffs ending with the previous turn can cost you a lot of models in a short period of time in Malifaux. Companion can be just as alpha-strikey as any feat in Warmahordes, and real gunpowder is way more effective than the substitute crap they have in Immoren. With certain strategies, loosing a couple of models can essentially be a game over for you. I've also seen a Warmachine game won by the last model standing on a player's force after he got hit by a major rush. What both games have in common is the possibility of taking a huge hit and still coming back to win, and that's a big reason why I love them both.

It's both MK1 and 2. It's not just the alpha striky nature that irks me and some friends. It's just how over the top the crap is and how you rarely have to actually do anything. Running eDenny and don't want your opponent to move for a turn? Just snap your fingers and it's done. No roll, no resist, just stand there and be bored for the next 20 min. Want to cast a spell? Just remove the focus and it's yours. I played one game where my opponent killed more of my models in 2 turns (we called it after 2 turns) then dice he rolled the entire game. Was beyond retarded. I lost 1/2 of my army on turn 2 and he rolled dice twice during the course of the turn. At least in Malifaux nothing is automatic and rarely do you lose complete control of a model, let alone of your entire army with nothing you can do about it. Plus the amount of models that have feats that do this is a decent number.

[ukrocky]

@emisarry, the rant I posted a link to on page 3 is essentially what you're saying. I love the rules of h/wm but I just get annoyed at it at times.

[tadaka]

I find a poor initiative flip combined with most all buffs ending with the previous turn can cost you a lot of models in a short period of time in Malifaux

This has all ways been my personal big beef with malifaux. Drives me nuts that I can put up a defensive buff and it lasts for a long time one round and 2 seconds the next. Would love to see effects last until the model that made them activates next turn or end of turn if the model is no longer on the table.

[emissary]

It can, but at least the I go you go system limits this some. It could be much worse in the my turn your turn system. Plus at least just about everything still needs a flip to work. In the my turn, your turn systems like WM or 40k I've seen many an army mauled before the opponent got to do anything. Nothing's perfect, but I do think it's much more limited in Malifaux. Plus being able to spend a stone to reflip initiative is a good thing. More control as opposed to total control or no control at all.

[FearLord]

I find a poor initiative flip combined with most all buffs ending with the previous turn can cost you a lot of models in a short period of time in Malifaux

This has all ways been my personal big beef with malifaux. Drives me nuts that I can put up a defensive buff and it lasts for a long time one round and 2 seconds the next. Would love to see effects last until the model that made them activates next turn or end of turn if the model is no longer on the table.

Yes, the way things are now, there are certain actions that it just isn't worth doing if you've left a model to the end of the turn to activate... That may be intentional for balance, but it does make that initiative flip all important sometimes...

[elril]

I find a poor initiative flip combined with most all buffs ending with the previous turn can cost you a lot of models in a short period of time in Malifaux

This has all ways been my personal big beef with malifaux. Drives me nuts that I can put up a defensive buff and it lasts for a long time one round and 2 seconds the next. Would love to see effects last until the model that made them activates next turn or end of turn if the model is no longer on the table.

It is what it is, a half dozen of one versus six of the other. Change the timing and balance is completely flipped on the game. I see two arguments here basically: one make the game simple, with limited combos. My argument, comparing this game to 40K and saying it is getting too complicated is not a worthwhile endevour. 40K is a simple game, Malifaux is a moderately complex game. This game is about combos, that is a lot of it's mechanic. Do I think six man extended combos are the way to go, no, not really, I prefer the give and take of the alternating models.

The other argument is that the game is too simple, give the models more options. Rats attack and with certain models, you take a lot of them. <shrug>

I think the best thing for the game would be to change the nature of man such that people play to have fun, not dominate another player or look for loopholes in the rules to exploit. Failing that, I just like more options/variety. I love the creativity in the game, but the hard part is the balancing the power on the knives edge such that nothing is auto-include. Good luck.

[Necromorph]

I think the best thing for the game would be to change the nature of man such that people play to have fun, not dominate another player or look for loopholes in the rules to exploit. Failing that, I just like more options/variety. I love the creativity in the game, but the hard part is the balancing the power on the knives edge such that nothing is auto-include. Good luck.

Bingo...that's just how some people operate, and I think even if you did make an oversimplified version of a game, people would always find ways to abuse it. That is the nature of gaming in general (both mini games and video games).

However, the basic nature of Malifaux, Master/list abuses/imbalances will kind of keep me from Tournament play on any kind of regular basis. Similar to 40k, I feel like tournaments could easily turn into a "Who Has the Cheeziest List" competition. Again, not to say that other games aren't like that, but the only game I've played that doesn't have an inherent, recurring cycle of abuse in competitve play is Infinity. I play Malifaux and 40k for fun, Infinity I play competitively because it's a little bit more about skill and tactics and less about who brings "that list" with "that faction." Ofc, that is just the difference in the basic design of each game.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Necromorph

[Dolomyte]

pffbt, book three will obvious have a large $$$$$$$$$$ factor. They've been holding off for now, but now its time to really $$$$$$$$$$ up the place. Maybe the fourth rider will be a $$$$$$$$$$ car.

[CraigH]

I don't need a Book Three - One and Two are still keeping me busy. All I'm hoping for is the "Nightmare" version of LCB, Miss Pack and Gremlinette become more widely available.

Having said that, I keep thinking there is a role for "civilians" in the game. New arrivals through the Breach, townspeople to get in the way...

[elril]

I don't need a Book Three - One and Two are still keeping me busy. All I'm hoping for is the "Nightmare" version of LCB, Miss Pack and Gremlinette become more widely available.

Having said that, I keep thinking there is a role for "civilians" in the game. New arrivals through the Breach, townspeople to get in the way...

Oh, you mean extra corpse and blood tokens that can move?!

[Sliver Chocobo]

Oh, you mean extra corpse and blood tokens that can move?!

Yes please

[Devon_v]

Yeah, you can reflip, but sometimes you have a nine, and your opponent has a thirteen. Reflipping is a crap shoot in that situation, and you're probably better off holding the stone for defense.

Personally, I've created "no defense" situations for opponent's in Malifaux. Rasputina with the Essence of Power and Perfect Mirror throwing some high masks and soul stoning for literally unbeatable resist duels where the opponent only flips a card because the rules require it. Playing an "everything soulstones" Colette list (Cassie/Cory/Von Schill or somesuch) gives you the ability to skew any combat in your favor, potentially to the point of your opponent's cards becoming irrelevant.

In any game containing chance, the more you can control that chance, the better your army. In Malifaux, you have a control hand, aided by talents and abilities. In Warmahordes, spells and feats that sharply alter or bypass the bell curve of Xd6. Powergamers are always going to find the ultimate combo. Something is the best, and practice and study will reveal it.

It's probably inevitable. If you keep releasing models, it becomes exponentially harder to test every interaction. If you stop releasing models, you have to create a new game to make money. Preferably something so much better than your old game that everyone wants to play it instead.

[micahwc]

Personally, I've created "no defense" situations for opponent's in Malifaux. Rasputina with the Essence of Power and Perfect Mirror throwing some high masks and soul stoning for literally unbeatable resist duels where the opponent only flips a card because the rules require it. Playing an "everything soulstones" Colette list (Cassie/Cory/Von Schill or somesuch) gives you the ability to skew any combat in your favor, potentially to the point of your opponent's cards becoming irrelevant.

Your Colette list sounds like fun to play against. I have seen a Colette player use 8 soul stones in 1 turn when fighting against Lilith.

I have faced your "no defense" Raspy combo and nurfed it with hex. Hexing away the Essence of Power's ability on the first turn of the game made it a waste of points. There are some wicked combos in this game, and there are ways around most of them.

What I really like about Malifaux is that I choose an army based off of schemes and strategies, and therefore am able to win even against a "no defense" list.

"In any game containing chance, the more you can control that chance, the better your army. In Malifaux, you have a control hand, aided by talents and abilities. In Warmahordes, spells and feats that sharply alter or bypass the bell curve of Xd6. Powergamers are always going to find the ultimate combo. Something is the best, and practice and study will reveal it."

You are correct in saying this; however, in this game I feel like there are enough ultimate combos that most masters can be competitive.