Rules manual PDF

[schristofersen]

It really is sad that people are so bent on being critical and unhappy. Wyrd certainly did not have to produce a PDF at all. It is definitely working as intended in my case as I looked at it long enough to get a feel that I would like the game and then went in search of a copy of the new rule book and got three crews along with it to mess around with playing games with my girlfriend.

[LoboStele]

Noone is 'bashing' Wyrd. That is ridiculous hyperbole. A rulebook has a shelf life, everyone knows this. What the company does about this is what matters. Other companies change versions every 5-6 years. Not 2. This is not standard and looks bad without player support.

Wait...so are you saying that it would have been acceptable if Wyrd had waited 5-6 years to release the Rules Manual instead??

No, I highly doubt that's what you're saying, because people were complaining that the rules were clunky, and there was a lot of errata to be followed, and that we needed something concise to gather it all together.

Come on...some of you (not just anathema) are reacting to this as if you expect Wyrd to issue a new Rules Manual every 2 years. It's happened ONE time so far. You can't create an expectation for the future based on one instance. Now, if Wyrd ends up putting out a new Rules Manual every 2 years or so...then I might be inclined to get frustrated about it.

As it stands though, they are a BRAND NEW miniature company in the last couple years, with this being their first game (I don't remember what kind of designing experience Eric may have had before this). Some slack HAS to be cut for them in terms of allowing them some time to get the rules ironed out right. As someone who has worked on some game design in the past, it is incredibly difficult to get everything right the first time around.

And whether piracy concerns are just paranoia or not, they are a real problem, just like buying from the internet is, to brick and mortar owners. LGS shops are a dying breed in most cases, and they have to do everything they can to keep their sales up. If that means they refuse to sell product that offers both a hard copy rule book and a free PDF that is the full rule book as well, then I totally understand.

In the end....I mean, come on. It's $15. If you can't spend $15 for the RM, then should you be spending $15 on the next blister you buy?

We used to have similar discussions for other games I was involved with, as to whether people would be willing to purchase peripheral products, and the decision was that of course they would, as if they had the money to buy a booster of said product, then they could certainly choose to buy the peripheral instead of a booster here or there. Either product would improve the play experience.

[dahli.llama]

Can we please bring this back to the original topic, or just be done with the thread?

All the OP and the majority of posters want is a usable PDF file. Printable would be a nice bonus, but I can understand why that is not feasible.

Right now, in its current state, the PDF is only able to be opened on a relatively powerful PC. The file is huge, and the layers make it very clunky when reading. Even on my laptop it takes much longer to move between pages than on my desktop. On my Nook and my smartphone it is completely unusable.

I own both original books and the Rules Manual, along with crews from all factions except Neverborn, it's not like I'm trying to get away with something for nothing. I'd just like the product to be usable. As it is, the PDF would be akin to a book with a chain holding it to a single desk. It works, but isn't exactly convenient.

[LoboStele]

Right now, in its current state, the PDF is only able to be opened on a relatively powerful PC. The file is huge, and the layers make it very clunky when reading. Even on my laptop it takes much longer to move between pages than on my desktop. On my Nook and my smartphone it is completely unusable.

For what it's worth, I don't think this is entirely true, and if you're having THAT much trouble with your computer, I suggest doing a defragmentation, and probably an ad-ware/spy-ware wipe. My laptop is only a 2.5 Ghz machine with 2 GB of RAM, which is really not that impressive in today's terms. The laptop is almost 2 years old. I use the PDF CONSTANTLY during the day whenever I'm on the forums here. The only time I use the physical hard copy Rules Manual is when I'm actually at the LGS playing games. And even then, it wouldn't be that much slower for me to jump to the index in the Rules Manual (Pg 108, I've memorized it :thumb: ), and then quickly find the info that I'm looking for.

Maybe my experience is different from others, but I figure if a 2 year old laptop (which are typically slower than most desktops) can run the PDF fine, that I think the 'relatively powerful PC' type comments are a bit of an exaggeration.

[dahli.llama]

For what it's worth, I don't think this is entirely true, and if you're having THAT much trouble with your computer, I suggest doing a defragmentation, and probably an ad-ware/spy-ware wipe. My laptop is only a 2.5 Ghz machine with 2 GB of RAM, which is really not that impressive in today's terms. The laptop is almost 2 years old. I use the PDF CONSTANTLY during the day whenever I'm on the forums here. The only time I use the physical hard copy Rules Manual is when I'm actually at the LGS playing games. And even then, it wouldn't be that much slower for me to jump to the index in the Rules Manual (Pg 108, I've memorized it :thumb: ), and then quickly find the info that I'm looking for.

Maybe my experience is different from others, but I figure if a 2 year old laptop (which are typically slower than most desktops) can run the PDF fine, that I think the 'relatively powerful PC' type comments are a bit of an exaggeration.

It's usable, but it is still considerably slower loading each page compared to a standard flattened PDF.

That still doesn't address the fact that it is completely unusable on any kind of portable reader like a smartphone or e-reader. I have managed to create a low-res version that is about 1/6 the size and will work on my Nook, but it would still have been nice to have that option without resorting to using GIMP and saving each page to a doc manually.

[LoboStele]

It's usable, but it is still considerably slower loading each page compared to a standard flattened PDF.

That still doesn't address the fact that it is completely unusable on any kind of portable reader like a smartphone or e-reader. I have managed to create a low-res version that is about 1/6 the size and will work on my Nook, but it would still have been nice to have that option without resorting to using GIMP and saving each page to a doc manually.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I'll be getting a used iPad1 here in a couple weeks, and will be planning to use it with gaming stuff. But it is kind of a bummer that this file is semi-tough to use on it. Not impossible though.

At this point, I would chalk it up to the prior discussion about LGS Owners and free rule book downloads. If you can easily transport the manual around on an iPhone or other small device, and it's free, the LGS won't make as much money on the rule book. I agree, it is a bit of paranoia, but the argument those store owners will make is that people will get the free rules, and then they'll find the card stats online, and then they'll start playing games with pennies and bottle caps, and not actually buying the product anymore.

Granted, I don't see this as the case AT ALL locally, as MANY of our Malifaux players got into the game simply for the awesome models to start with. But, I have heard first hand those kinds of odd arguments from game store folks.

[Buhallin]

I actually think the argument from the LGS owners would be more grounded than that.

Books provide a browsing ability that models don't. I've seen Mantic's models on the shelves, but never seen a rulebook in our LGS, and it does nothing for me. Having the physical book there to skim through can give you a feel for the style of the rules and play, and that can hook people into buying something at the store.

If someone can find a perfectly usable copy online, there's no need for them to even go into the store to browse, much less buy. Yes, there are undoubtedly people who will go in, browse, then leave to place an online order... but there's not much you can do about people like that either way.

You can object to the luddites all you want, and call them nuts, and project their doom for not understanding what the gaming customer wants... but if you're a smallish company like Wyrd it's a position you at least have to respect out of good business sense, if nothing else. Eric has stated why they made the decision they did. You can either accept that, disagree and tell him he's wrong, or call him a liar for it. Nothing he's done would seem to indicate he deserves to be called a liar, and if you think it's the wrong decision I'd suggest you're slightly underinformed compared to him as to what Wyrd has to deal with, but it's your right to be.

Or, you might simply say "Boy, it'd be really neat if I could put this on my shiny iPad, but they didn't make it so I could. They probably have their reasons. Bummer."

[Hansel]

If someone can find a perfectly usable copy online, there's no need for them to even go into the store to browse, much less buy.

Actually I'd argue that a fair amount of people use "illegal libraries" on their computers to check stuff out and see if they want to buy it. I'd go get a Malifaux Book 1 from my library if they had it, but seeing as they don't, I looked at an electronic copy, decided I wanted to buy it, and now am going to--from my FLGS, because I play there often and I want to keep them in business so I can continue to play there.

There's just no way I'd buy the book without giving it a good look-through first.

I realize not everyone's like that (I've played 40k against people w/ electronic codices, which I don't get at all), just saying some people are like that.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Hansel

[Buhallin]

WITHOUT starting a debate on the nobility and honorable applications of intellectual piracy, I'll just say that whatever percentage actually do that sort of thing, the perception is that it's very, very small.

And that's my point, really - you can argue all you want about what having electronic copies means to a store. The point Eric has made is that it's the OPINION of the distributors and store owners that matters, because that's what Wyrd has to deal with. I'd venture that they're is in a much better position than most (if not al) of us to know what those opinions are.

[Hansel]

And that's my point, really - you can argue all you want about what having electronic copies means to a store. The point Eric has made is that it's the OPINION of the distributors and store owners that matters, because that's what Wyrd has to deal with. I'd venture that they're is in a much better position than most (if not al) of us to know what those opinions are.

Oh, I totally agree with this! I wasn't arguing against this, just putting out a different side, is all.

[anathema]

Wait...so are you saying that it would have been acceptable if Wyrd had waited 5-6 years to release the Rules Manual instead??

No, I highly doubt that's what you're saying, because people were complaining that the rules were clunky, and there was a lot of errata to be followed, and that we needed something concise to gather it all together.

Obviously not. I'm saying that most companies only expect you to pay for new versions every 5-6 years and release errata for the existing version in a free pdf throughout the existing version's lifetime. Even GW do that.

Cutting them some slack extends to not expecting them to have all the problems ironed out until a while after release and accepting that issues will only get errata once they've been discovered and then a solution approved.

I don't complain when problems are found, its expected. I have complained when a usable comprehensive errata isn't released and it could easily be done so.

Wyrd have released errata and V.2 card which is commendable. They could quite easily continue their good practice by making the damned pdf usable, which is the sole complaint I have.

As for the LGS argument, not only is it a post-hoc explanation but it could also have been solved. By releasing a bare bones consolidated errata pdf and saving the posh formatting, graphics, layout and all the other good stuff for the paid version you're giving the best of both worlds.

The LGS would have a superior physical product to sell that most players will buy anyway and the existing players get the basic errata in usable electronic format and can spend more on models.

As it is, I could possibly get my Malifaux cheaper online but I shop where I play. The main problem in my area is not electronic rulebooks but the awful UK distributor.

Edited April 26, 2011 by anathema

[Math Mathonwy]

I see your concern on the new player end. I can see how someone would feel as though they were being lied to, if it's presented in a way that says the pdf is everything they'll need, rather than a super basic introduction. A super basic intro that is really stylishly done....

"Super basic intro" is a bit extreme as all that is lacking is diagrams and scenarios, right? It's just that the format makes it hard to use.

And whether piracy concerns are just paranoia or not, they are a real problem, just like buying from the internet is, to brick and mortar owners.

The sad thing here of course is that it's very easy to make the PDF flat (but not easy enough to be meant to be done, which is why I haven't done so) and I'm almost certain that I could get a pirated version of the full rules manual that would work on mobile devices were I so inclined. In other words, pirates are the ones who get the superior product in this case.

[LoboStele]

As for the LGS argument, not only is it a post-hoc explanation but it could also have been solved. By releasing a bare bones consolidated errata pdf and saving the posh formatting, graphics, layout and all the other good stuff for the paid version you're giving the best of both worlds.

I dunno....I guess it's only ad hoc if you choose to see it that way. I don't think Wyrd was just making that up after the fact to cover their own butt.

But as for releasing a bare bones errata....

That's EXACTLY what they already had in the Fall. We had Book 1, Book 2, and an Errata which covered everything. Yes, there were some forum rulings and a compiled thread of Errata on the forums as well, but overall, there already was a pretty concise set up for the rules and errata. But people still asked for more. The only way to go from there would be to produce an entire new book with everything combined in one place.

Now, sure, Wyrd could have made such a book, and made it completely free, and only as a downloadable file, so that nobody had to buy it. But you don't think Wyrd should make any money off of their hard work? Some people might make the argument that Wyrd made mistakes in the original rules, and that the customer shouldn't have to pay to fix them. And I understand that argument, but the reality is that they DID fix them, through errata and other means up through the end of 2010. But customers asked for more, and so Wyrd acquiesced.

Honestly, what you guys are asking for Wyrd to do is NOT IN GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE for them. We can't be asking them, as a company, to be doing things that would end up driving them out of business. If we the customers ask for the company to spend it's time and manpower to make a better product, then we have to be willing to pay the company something so that it is worth their time to do actually do that work.

[Nathan Caroland]

:rip::dead::rip: