Rules manual PDF

[LoboStele]

I use the PDF pretty frequently just for quick reference when talking on the forums here. I'm often sitting at my computer (obviously) and don't have the actual Rules Manual nearby to use it instead. I find that I can quickly look at the Table of Contents at the beginning, or the Index at the end, and either way, find what I'm looking for in probably less than a minute, even with the slightly slow loading speeds.

@ anathema and others: Please be careful with your statements. No need to get further threads locked. Your complaints of that nature have been heard over and over again. At this point, it's water under the bridge, and the vast majority of people on the forum seem to be quite pleased with how things have turned out. In essence, you DO have the original Book 1 and Book 2, and an online Errata. The Errata may not be that simple to print out, but that is essentially what you've got at the moment. If it's not in the format that YOU want to see....then do like Ratty has, and re-write it in your preferred style. Wyrd has offered what they felt was the best solution for the majority of their players. Of course, this means that it's not going to match the ideal of some people, and that's just how it goes in life. If you can't get used to that kind of thing happening with a miniatures game, then you're going to be very unhappy in life overall, because it happens all the times (see politics, for example...always about serving the majority).

Instead of continuing to complain about something that isn't going to change at this point....do something about it.

[Math Mathonwy]

@ anathema and others: Please be careful with your statements. No need to get further threads locked. Your complaints of that nature have been heard over and over again. At this point, it's water under the bridge, and the vast majority of people on the forum seem to be quite pleased with how things have turned out. In essence, you DO have the original Book 1 and Book 2, and an online Errata. The Errata may not be that simple to print out, but that is essentially what you've got at the moment. If it's not in the format that YOU want to see....then do like Ratty has, and re-write it in your preferred style. Wyrd has offered what they felt was the best solution for the majority of their players. Of course, this means that it's not going to match the ideal of some people, and that's just how it goes in life. If you can't get used to that kind of thing happening with a miniatures game, then you're going to be very unhappy in life overall, because it happens all the times (see politics, for example...always about serving the majority).

Instead of continuing to complain about something that isn't going to change at this point....do something about it.

I suppose that the "and others" includes me - I've been trying to be very polite as I honestly think that Wyrd has handled the issue well. It's just that their execution on one part is a bit lacking. I don't see any reason why the PDF can't be flattened. I mean, restricting printing is understandable, but making the PDF too cumbersome to use is silly IMHO and I'm not at all convinced that it was a conscious decision.

As for "not going to change" - that's very silly. Wyrd have an absolutely excellent record in listening to customer feedback and acting on it. The latest case being the allowing of printed v2 cards on tournament organizer's say so in tournaments that follow the official rules. People voiced their concerns, Wyrd considered them, and made a ruling that satisfied everyone.

Now, if Wyrd says that the PDF is cumbersome on purpose and won't change, then you could say that. But since they haven't said that, I think that you're being extremely counter productive and am baffled by what you're trying achieve.

[LoboStele]

Now, if Wyrd says that the PDF is cumbersome on purpose and won't change, then you could say that. But since they haven't said that, I think that you're being extremely counter productive and am baffled by what you're trying achieve.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the Wyrd guys already shut down two other threads because people kept continuing to hammer on about points like this. The idea for flattening the PDF has been suggested. The point that the PDF is cumbersome has been made. Repeating it over and over again isn't likely to make any difference at this point.

I'm not against you guys in this though. I have an iPhone and an iPad as well, and would love to be able to use the PDF on those more easily. I've made sure to copy some of the ideas and re-post them in the Henchmen forum area for further discussion, and to further hope that Wyrd sees the suggestions.

Beyond that, I was just cautioning to not let the thread devolve into the same stuff that got the last two threads closed down.

[anathema]

I have no beef with wyrd per se, I enjoy the game and will continue to do so. However I'm offering constructive criticism. I have never insulted them individually or collectively. I may have repeated my point but I believe it is a valid one and other posters in this thread appear to agree. I don't feel I have done anything that contravene forum rules so I don't see why I can't contribute to the thread.

As it is I've said my piece in this thread and now hope that the company can respond in a way that will satisfy their customers who have posted here by at least flattening the pdf.

[Math Mathonwy]

I suppose what I'm saying is that the Wyrd guys already shut down two other threads because people kept continuing to hammer on about points like this. The idea for flattening the PDF has been suggested. The point that the PDF is cumbersome has been made. Repeating it over and over again isn't likely to make any difference at this point.

Where (other than on this thread) has the suggestion of flattening the PDF been made? It's possible that I've missed it, but I hadn't seen it before.

I saw the previous train wreck, but thought that a new thread was in order now that the PDF has been out for a while and now that I've used it as a selling point to potential new players (which kinda turned out to not be as I had advertised it). I was looking for other people's experiences and maybe some pointers on where I was going wrong.

I'm not against you guys in this though. I have an iPhone and an iPad as well, and would love to be able to use the PDF on those more easily. I've made sure to copy some of the ideas and re-post them in the Henchmen forum area for further discussion, and to further hope that Wyrd sees the suggestions.

Thank you!

Beyond that, I was just cautioning to not let the thread devolve into the same stuff that got the last two threads closed down.

They devolved into accusations of unethicalness and greed and other such silliness. This thread has been entirely polite and constructive and though I naturally do share your wish that it remains so, there was no indication that it wouldn't.

[magicpockets]

At risk of speaking out of turn, it's relatively simple to flatten and optimize the PDF yourelf. I hope that not the kind of behavior that is referred to above, but it can be done.

[Math Mathonwy]

At risk of speaking out of turn, it's relatively simple to flatten and optimize the PDF yourelf. I hope that not the kind of behavior that is referred to above, but it can be done.

Aye, I'm sure that I could do that (working on my PhD in essentially computer science) but my concern here isn't my personal use (loving my Rules Manual) but rather in promoing the game. Since the printing has been disabled, flattening the PDF isn't trivial, so mentioning it in promoing is weird, to say the least.

[magicpockets]

Yeah, I get what you mean. Also, from a security point of view it makes sense to flatten the layers on the distributed version so they can't be removed later. But the thing with Wyrd is they're smart guys and every time I've seen someone challenge their decisions they've either responded to the feedback or there's been a reason we haven't thought of why they've done what they've done.

If it IS something as simple as an oversight or not knowing how to properly optimise a PDF for online distribution I'd be very surprised. (Although if it is Wyrd, email me and I'll do it for you - it's a 2 minute job and no credit is needed )

[Hansel]

I wouldn't claim its useful for new players at all. The thing that got me into Malifaux was the low entry price and only needinbg one book for everything. That's no longer true.

I understand the disappointment in some aspects of the PDF--it's too big, takes too long to load, etc.

But I've got to stop you here. I just got into Malifaux (like, last month), and it is still most definitely true that Malifaux has a low entry price and you only need one book for everything.

I bought a box and rules manual, and after I assembled my models, I started playing. In what way do you NEED book 1 or book 2 if you have the Rules Manual? Sure, that'll probably change with book 3, but that's the price we pay (literally) if we want the game to grow.

[anathema]

If you want to know anything at all about the other crews you might face or the background to the whole word, its in the other books. You may not find that useful, but I bet most players do. So yeah, you can buy the manual and a box if you want the bare mechanics. If you want the game world, you buy book 1 at least.

I don't object to expansion, I welcome it. I will be buying book 3 if it expands the game like book 2 did. I do object to making the core rules part of one of my books obsolete without a reasonable way of correcting it.

Buying a new book to replace rules I only bought 18 months ago isn't reasonable to me. Even GW don't make a rulebook obsolete within a couple of years. This wouldn't be an issue if the pdf was usable.

[LoboStele]

But, GW does make their books obsolete, what...every 6 years? 8 years? And then they cost like $60, right? So, Malifaux's $15 Manual, after 1.5 years. Let's see. 1.5 years times 4 is 6 years, and $15 times 4 is $60. Seems just about the same in the end to me.

And you don't need to buy Book 1 for the model stats for the most part. You can download the V2 cards on the site here. Granted, not ALL of them are in there, but all the Masters are, and a vast majority of the minions. Certainly enough to get a basic understanding of the various crews.

And $35 to buy Book 1 or 2 just simply for the fluff and artwork isn't too bad, especially considering what it costs to buy a Graphic Novel.

If people want a primer into the world of Malifaux, then direct them to the Wyrd Chronicles (download on the left as well). Those were written before Book 1 came out anyways.

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, I get what you mean. Also, from a security point of view it makes sense to flatten the layers on the distributed version so they can't be removed later. But the thing with Wyrd is they're smart guys and every time I've seen someone challenge their decisions they've either responded to the feedback or there's been a reason we haven't thought of why they've done what they've done.

If it IS something as simple as an oversight or not knowing how to properly optimise a PDF for online distribution I'd be very surprised. (Although if it is Wyrd, email me and I'll do it for you - it's a 2 minute job and no credit is needed )

I agree with you 100%!

[anathema]

But, GW does make their books obsolete, what...every 6 years? 8 years? And then they cost like $60, right? So, Malifaux's $15 Manual, after 1.5 years. Let's see. 1.5 years times 4 is 6 years, and $15 times 4 is $60. Seems just about the same in the end to me.

I stopped playing 40K about 3-4 years ago, so saying Wyrd are as bad as GW doesn't make things look any better from my end. I don't think they're as bad by the way, hence I still play the game but I expected more in terms of support for those who purchased Book 1 as a rules manual.

I look at Flames of War as my other main game. Battlefront aren't perfect, but they have not made any army books officially obsolete since they went from rules V1 to V2 about 4 years ago and offered V1 owners an A3 core rulebook when they switched. It works for me.

Problem with Malifaux is that it is played so close to the edge of the rules and clever rule-stretching combos are encouraged. There's much less RAI or clear interpretation of 'spirit of the rules'. It not a bad thing in most cases, but its why errata will continue to build up despite the manual.

V2 cards for book 2 models are already needed and a requirement to release a new rules manuals every year or two is a distinct possibility, especially if Book 3 comes out and needs errata straight away as it probably will. Despite the best will in the world, a game like this will have errors as its played so close to the edge and 20-30 playtesters can't do the same job as hundreds or thousands playing week in, week out. What happens when the next load of errata becomes unwieldy in 12-18 months? Another manual? Or will a good pdf be better for all concerned?

I enjoy the game and would recommend it to anyone. I will actively help new players in my gaming group. What I won't do is pretend that getting hold of everything you need is as simple as buying a manual and a crew any more.

And $35 to buy Book 1 or 2 just simply for the fluff and artwork isn't too bad, especially considering what it costs to buy a Graphic Novel.

If people want a primer into the world of Malifaux, then direct them to the Wyrd Chronicles (download on the left as well). Those were written before Book 1 came out anyways.

Two points:

1. I don't buy graphic novels and after taking out all the Malifaux rules I wouldn't pay £50 for the fluff in book 1 and 2.

2. I have never read the chronicles because they take too damn long to open on my desktop and scrolling through the pdf is a nightmare. Sound familiar?

Edited April 21, 2011 by anathema

[Buhallin]

I look at Flames of War as my other main game. Battlefront aren't perfect, but they have not made any army books officially obsolete since they went from rules V1 to V2 about 4 years ago and offered V1 owners an A3 core rulebook when they switched. It works for me.

You're right that Battlefront has technically not obsoleted anything - you can still play with Afrika or Ostfront. But I personally don't know anybody who does. In many cases units and lists got cheaper, putting you at a serious play disadvantage if you stuck to the older briefings, thus effectively obsoleting them. Not to mention that the new ones are $50 each, which made it quite the expensive turnover. The D-Day books are much the same.

These sorts of things largely come down to matters of opinion, and feelings towards the company in question. Our good friend Zethal held AEG up as a paragon of what gaming companies should be because their recent handling of L5R met his expectations. My own experience was far different as a 7th Sea player.

I do find it a bit contradictory that you'll hold up Battlefront as your example of "good" only a few pages after you point out that people want to have information on their opposition, and so would have to buy the first Malifaux book. Doing the same thing for FoW will cost me $240 just in the compiled briefings before I even look at the campaign-specific books at another $20 or so each. But you knock Malifaux's handling because they'd need to spend a total of $85 for the same info.

Everyone's opinion on an action is driven by perception. You've obviously been a FoW player for a good long time if you were there for the v2 rules, and they built up enough good will in your brain that asking you to pay $200 for hardback books that essentially reprinted stuff, with points adjustments to make the new stuff more powerful, didn't bug you - but when I phrase it like that, it doesn't seem that great, does it?

Wyrd is a small company trying to find a balance between producing a game, making enough money to pay their people, and doing the right thing for their customers. I think they've done AT LEAST as well as Battlefront on that front. If nothing else, the reprint didn't cost me $50, and I didn't have to buy four of them.

[Hansel]

If you want to know anything at all about the other crews you might face or the background to the whole word, its in the other books. You may not find that useful, but I bet most players do. So yeah, you can buy the manual and a box if you want the bare mechanics. If you want the game world, you buy book 1 at least.

Yeah, you're right, if you want fiction--you need Book 1.

You can download the v2 cards for each faction for free, which will give you a reasonable amount of info on what each faction brings to the table (though not entirely).

I sorta think that if one is hardcore into the game enough to want to study the other factions and models, then $35 ($25 @ Amazon) isn't going to be too much of a big deal. You could always borrow a book 1 from someone in your local playgroup.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Hansel

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by anathema

If you want to know anything at all about the other crews you might face or the background to the whole word, its in the other books. You may not find that useful, but I bet most players do. So yeah, you can buy the manual and a box if you want the bare mechanics. If you want the game world, you buy book 1 at least.

Same can be said for warmachines and warhammer. A lot of miniature games have army books at least. It's optional to buy, fiction comes with it but u can easily go online read the forums and get a better idea of what I may be up against than trying to decoder on my own from book 1&2.

[Ciaran]

Problem with Malifaux is that it is played so close to the edge of the rules and clever rule-stretching combos are encouraged. There's much less RAI or clear interpretation of 'spirit of the rules'. It not a bad thing in most cases, but its why errata will continue to build up despite the manual.

V2 cards for book 2 models are already needed and a requirement to release a new rules manuals every year or two is a distinct possibility, especially if Book 3 comes out and needs errata straight away as it probably will. Despite the best will in the world, a game like this will have errors as its played so close to the edge and 20-30 playtesters can't do the same job as hundreds or thousands playing week in, week out. What happens when the next load of errata becomes unwieldy in 12-18 months? Another manual? Or will a good pdf be better for all concerned?

I don't know that Wyrd will have to do a rule manual every year. Most of what's in the Rules Manual is pretty "generic" when it comes to the rules. It cleared up a ton of the core rules questions, without delving too far into the model specific stuff. Those seem to be the sorts of things that aren't going to need the constant attention that model-rules development will need after wide spread release.

The cards are where a ton of that errata ended up. I would be okay (not thrilled, just okay) with a new version of a majority of the cards every year and a half to two years. Admittedly I'd prefer less often...

This is assuming that Wyrd doesn't continue to get better at writing the rules (which I think they are, the progression of writing between book 1 and the Rules Manual has been pretty staggering). It seems a lot of what we've struggled with has been communicating that information correctly, and consistently.

Just my thoughts on it!

Edited April 22, 2011 by Ciaran

[Pink Horror]

I stopped playing 40K about 3-4 years ago, so saying Wyrd are as bad as GW doesn't make things look any better from my end.

...

Problem with Malifaux is that it is played so close to the edge of the rules and clever rule-stretching combos are encouraged. There's much less RAI or clear interpretation of 'spirit of the rules'.

...

V2 cards for book 2 models are already needed and a requirement to release a new rules manuals every year or two is a distinct possibility, especially if Book 3 comes out and needs errata straight away as it probably will.

This is very similar to my thoughts on Malifaux. Just wanted to put it out there that someone agrees. I see there's quite a few people here defending Wyrd. I personally respect the company enough to think they can take a little criticism without closing up shop or crying themselves to sleep. I mean, it's easy to make yourself feel good by the defending the game you love to play and the company that produces it, but does no one else see how Wyrd has brought the constant errata and rules clarifications upon themselves with their game design and rules-writing style?

I left a game company where the owner and the lead designer fell into a vicious cycle with their fiercely loyal online community, and stopped seeing any flaws in their product at all. Well, I think Wyrd is mature enough to take the criticism, so I'll assume for now they're mature enough to take the praise, too.

[tadaka]

I defend it because I think the PDF does what it should. Lets players get the rules to play a few games but not enough that they can just skip the book. My only issue is I see no reason people should not be able to print it but dont think its a major issue.

I have 0 problems telling wyrd when they are not doing right. I have done so on a number of posts. End of the day I think its a usefull product given for free. If they sold it to me and I could not print and it ran like crap on any digital medium I could support people saying this is not a good product.

That being said I would like to see the rules offered in a digital medium for things like Nooks and smartphones.

[magicpockets]

Is everyone forgetting here that Wyrd are a handful of guys? Personally I think theyve done really well to achieve what they've achieved with the resources they've got - and we shouldn't judge them on their early days, as of right now with the rule manual and V2 cards there's little problem with the game.

I agree they need to give some thought now to the path new players take into the game (perhaps redoing book 1 and 2 to bring them in line with current erratas, rule book and v2 stats), but that's something I see in every new business I work with - every business starts on one path then ends up being moved to the "right" path by it's customers. Wyrd are learning from that and (by the look of it) moving as fast as they can to keep up.

And when you consider all of the pivoting Wyrd have done to keep us happy and "fix" various issues, it's kind of sad that they are getting so much stick for a FREE pdf.

Wyrd are not a "company" run by faceless employees who are there for the paycheck more than the product, they're people putting their heart and soul into something they believe in - so remember that when you say something is wrong/broken/poor quality/unbalanced etc, it's like calling one of their children stupid or ugly - it hurts. Not that you shouldn't point it out, but you'd never go "OMG your kid is so ugly, can't you see it? GW took their kids to a plastic surgeon, why don't you take yours? I can't even introduce people to your kid now as I'm so ashamed of what they'll think" - maybe worth considering.

Sorry for the rant, but I genuinely love this game and company and think some of the recent criticism has lost some of it's perspective.

[Chucklemonkey]

Sorry for the rant, but I genuinely love this game and company and think some of the recent criticism has lost some of it's perspective.

To a certain extent I agree with your general point but I would say perspective has been lost by both the defenders and attackers (Couldn't think of better phraseology there, apologies).

There have been genuine points of concern that get lost in what becomes nothing but a circular argument. In the V2 card thread that got locked there was a very good point about the time limit on the redemption as it appeared there was still some V1 blisters out there.

It was stated that there shouldn't be anymore v1 in circulation, but as someone who has a friend who not that long ago bought a pre-malifaux judge with no card, I can safely say there were, and as a result there may still be issues for those coming newly into the game. Hopefully the stat card boxes will be out shortly.

I love this game as much as anyone but it is clear there are lessons to be learnt - and some people here (i'm not saying you, but in general) just start shouting down anyone who mentions this.

All I hope for is that Wyrd keep putting in the efforts that they do, both in developing the game, and in taking care of their customers.

I had worked on a much larger more eloquent but similar post to this previously but Weird Sketch ninja threadlocked that particular battleground.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Chucklemonkey

[Math Mathonwy]

I defend it because I think the PDF does what it should. Lets players get the rules to play a few games but not enough that they can just skip the book.

The cumbersomeness doesn't seem to serve any purpose that I can think of, though.

My only issue is I see no reason people should not be able to print it but dont think its a major issue.

I have 0 problems telling wyrd when they are not doing right. I have done so on a number of posts. End of the day I think its a usefull product given for free. If they sold it to me and I could not print and it ran like crap on any digital medium I could support people saying this is not a good product.

That being said I would like to see the rules offered in a digital medium for things like Nooks and smartphones.

In other words you agree with the crux of the criticism (and indeed the reason I posted this in the first place) put forward in this thread. Why did you frame that support as if it was some small part as opposed to the whole?

Is everyone forgetting here that Wyrd are a handful of guys?

Who exactly is this "everyone" you refer to here? Why make sweeping generalizations that aren't true and will only darken the tone? I realize that you're passionate about this (so am I) but there's no need for such hostility.

Personally I think theyve done really well to achieve what they've achieved with the resources they've got - and we shouldn't judge them on their early days, as of right now with the rule manual and V2 cards there's little problem with the game.

I agree. I also kinda think that everyone else here agrees with this as well.

I agree they need to give some thought now to the path new players take into the game (perhaps redoing book 1 and 2 to bring them in line with current erratas, rule book and v2 stats), but that's something I see in every new business I work with - every business starts on one path then ends up being moved to the "right" path by it's customers. Wyrd are learning from that and (by the look of it) moving as fast as they can to keep up.

OK, so you actually agree with the criticism that has been voiced in this thread. Makes the tone of your reply even more baffling.

Seriously, why not try to mellow the tone of a heated topic instead of escalating with strange comparisons and defenses against stuff that no one has even implied? Defending Wyrd is all good and well (they are awesome as I keep saying) but retaining perspective there is extremely important. A mindless dogpile serves absolutely no purpose.

[tadaka]

You put "These things combined make the PDF completely useless to me"

It's not the same thing as it would be nice if they let you print it. I dont find it useless. Its handy when I want to look some thing up on the side when I dont have a book handy but have a PC close at hand. I think you can play a game from it. Is it less then ideal in its current form yes but its that way so you actualy buy the rules. It's just like takeing a test drive you get to fiddle with the thing but at the end of the day you cant take it to anywhere that would be usefull because they need you to buy it.

[Chucklemonkey]

You put "These things combined make the PDF completely useless to me"

It's not the same thing as it would be nice if they let you print it. I dont find it useless. Its handy when I want to look some thing up on the side when I dont have a book handy but have a PC close at hand.

Not ideal if you don't have a computer...which isn't or shouldn't be a requirement to play the game.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Chucklemonkey

[tadaka]

I just dont think its half as bad as people are saying. Its a free teaser product. You can use it but its designed so you want the real product.