edonil Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Oh, and how is the family stuff, Dirial? I know what you mean, Photoxin. We're dealing with a couple of those here too... Buncha jerks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Oh, and how is the family stuff, Dirial?Well, my grandmother-in-law (?) is still in the hospital but it looks like she'll live. Her older son, my wife's uncle, however, acts totally irresponsible and I fight my urge to punch him in the face.Any interesting plans for the weekend?Shadowrun tonight. My wife flies to Dallas on Sunday, and I'm in for Descent 2nd on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Thats usually a problem with magic, and why you need to introduce clear limits to it. Otherwise it often becomes "Why didn't they use magic to solve problem X?" which will often become quite a bit jarring. Just as bad is villians forgetting their power at the end. Look, we previously established that your shields could block arrows. Why don't you have it up during your stupid speech? It's not like that did limit you before... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Glad to hear your grandmother is doing better. Sorry about the other bit. :/ what are you playing in Shadowrun, out of curiosity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Sanderson's third law- the more important the magic is to solving the plot, the better it should be defined. ...or is that the second. Whatever. Granted, I've read plenty of stories that didn't do that which worked fine, but the biggest plot elements of crazy were antagonist driven magics. Night Angel trilogy comes to mind there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 what are you playing in Shadowrun, out of curiosity?A Shaman of Raven who kinda substitutes as the teams Face.And morning, Crush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Sanderson's third law- the more important the magic is to solving the plot, the better it should be defined. ...or is that the second. Whatever. Granted, I've read plenty of stories that didn't do that which worked fine, but the biggest plot elements of crazy were antagonist driven magics. Night Angel trilogy comes to mind there.Night Angel Trilogy also had the big flaw of having a god-like as the final big bad, which usually requires a huge suspension of disbelief or some other plot device in order to work believable. (and then it might not be good) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 True, though the ending of that trilogy managed to be internally consistent enough that the big bad wasn't my problem. Those were other things, lol. It was a good story, but definitely had its share of flaws. that just sounds funny, Crush, lol. Gonna try aiming for that, Dirial? Sounds like you could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 True, there are worse examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 40k has nothing on Mage the Awakening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Both are good examples though why you shouldn't lit your cigar with a magical flame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 I will admit I have never been a huge fan of magic in settings, unless the limits are pretty much set in stone and adhered to. I much prefer the use of psychic powers and similar...but again, there needs to be limits to an individuals powers or levels otherwise it just becomes too over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 the use of magic in a poorly designed system or setting leads to convenient cop outs if not controlled properly. "dammit, the door out of here is blocked""stand back" *waves hands. Door flies off hinges*"wow, I didn't know you had that power""why yes, and later on, I am sure I will discover I can move water or shoot flame from my fingers!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 I know Dirial hates the settings etc, but that is why I like 40k so much (plus Heresy era) as a setting, as psychic powers whilst powerful are also limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) the use of magic in a poorly designed system or setting leads to convenient cop outs if not controlled properly. "dammit, the door out of here is blocked""stand back" *waves hands. Door flies off hinges*"wow, I didn't know you had that power""why yes, and later on, I am sure I will discover I can move water or shoot flame from my fingers!" it's the sonic screwdriver all over again... or R2-D2. "Plot device, I summon thee!" Edited September 11, 2015 by edonil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phototoxin Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) I agree, it's why I don't read a lot of fantasy these days as it's basically:Flangecopter is the Flibber. The Flibber is the special/chosen/last/only one able to flobble with their magical flobble-powers/gifts/whatever. The evil zargs/orcs/enemies/foreigners are attacking/invading/threatening and can only be defeated by Flangecopter and his/her flobble-powers/gifts.You know Flangecopter will survive long enough to stop the zargs. Boring. Flibber type characters always win/survive by virtue of being special/chosen/last/only one. They could dance naked around the enemy and they would still win.For me, things are better in established rules and their inventiveness as characters. If Flangecopter is a mopey idiot I want him/her to die a gory death. Perhaps that's why GOT is popular? Edited September 11, 2015 by Phototoxin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 it mostly depends on how the magic is handled and how it is used. Just.. have a realistical limit or reason why magic is or isn't used. Basically, it should be a setpiece and not an actual plot device. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is probably my favorite use of applied magic in media. Sanderson comes in second, but there's something about the way they laid out the rules and how the ending actually worked was just perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 One great example I remember is "Magebane". The plot of that story was that a long time ago, mages were overrun by normal humans, and raised magical walls in order to keep them out. In the story, several people all plot in order to bring down these walls. One wants to bring them down so he can conquer the outside, a second wants to bring them down so the outsiders can conquer the mages (for revenge) and the third wants to bring down the walls because they are an incredible drain on the magical lodestone that fuels their magic, which means they will eventually lose their magical powers (which in turn means that the ruling mages will lose their advantage) they work together, but have not revealed their "true" plans. The protagonist is somebody who flew over the wall (so he comes from the outside) and the other is the titular Magebane (who would have guessed) Magic is used, but are interestingly not that crucial to finishing the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Both are good examples though why you shouldn't lit your cigar with a magical flame Yeah, because unspeakable horrors will come for you if you overdo it.40k has nothing on Mage the Awakening.I still feel like I need an engineering degree to play that game Nah, once you get into it, it's pretty easy. Also, the 2nd Edition will clear a lot up. Also, I meant the setting, not the rules.I know Dirial hates the settings etc, but that is why I like 40k so much (plus Heresy era) as a setting, as psychic powers whilst powerful are also limited.I actually quite like the setting. The writing is really bad and the rules a shittiest shit, but the setting is nice. That's why I prefer the rpgs a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Ever played Urban Wars? 40k rules are good compared to that pile of shit. (I kid you not. Those were terrible...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phototoxin Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 I know Dirial hates the settings etc, but that is why I like 40k so much (plus Heresy era) as a setting, as psychic powers whilst powerful are also limited.I actually quite like the setting. The writing is really bad and the rules a shittiest shit, but the setting is nice. That's why I prefer the rpgs a lot.Yeah the setting is actually rich. The problem is they went from catering to sci-fi fans to writing ultrasmurf fanwank and various sphess mahrines murdering different victims. Rules wise it's not even a game any more. It's an activity, but I hesitate to call it a game.I like the RPGs a lot, there's a lot of potential to explore the setting which is impossible on the tabletop. I'd like a game of deathwatch done well. Unfortunately there's always one 'SPHESS MAHRINES ARRTAAAAKKKK' type player who needs to get killed / shunted out of an airlock. It's a mature setting and should be played by sensible people.For heck's sake I tried the Burning Crusade one time - we had 3 clods and myself and the GM. I was the berzerker (we actually had 1 of each of the 4 gods which was interesting) but the stuff these guys pulled.The tzeentch guy: 'I attack the merchant' (in the middle of a trading port) - 'why?' BECAUSE IM EVIL *twirl moustache*. me : *faceplam* (peasants aren't worthy sacrifices to khorne).Sorry for the rant, I've a migraine at work and going slowly more insane-er Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yeah, fandom infantility and writing catering to that certainly didn't do them any favors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yeah, fandom infantility and writing catering to that certainly didn't do them any favors.That's how I explained the novels to Benshin too. He loved the Ultramarines series. I was like, dude, any books about Space Marines are horrible fanboy stories. Told him to read the Horus Heresy series. He was instantly upset the tabletop game wasn't as good as those books, and generally hasn't touched GW since. Also told him to get into the Gaunt's Ghosts series and Gotrek & Felix (LOVE GOTREK & FELIX)... oh, and the Night Lords stuff. THAT'S how Chaos is supposed to be. Gaunts Ghosts are really good pieces of fiction..definitely not fanboy.The Heresy novels , whilst sometimes hit and miss, are on the whole a lot better and more depressing than the 40k versions! I actually like the Ultramarines in the Heresy novels, so much so I am considering building a heresy era Ultramarine force based on the survivors of Calth... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 Amazing..but expensive!Will be a long term project if I do start it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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