Ideas for beating Hamelin the Plagued

[Hookers]

The main takeaway points form the game were -

1) It's not fun for your opponent when you're activating/pushing rats multiple times in the game. It takes too long.

my main complaint about him

3) I'm struggling to make nix worth 7ss. For me herd dog is his most useful ability, but I'd rather take an extra Rat Catcher and Rat for the money. What am I missing?

I've never even seen herd dog used.

Things you are missing:

-Spirit (half damage from non magical sources) + Magic resist 2 = unkillable pain in the ass

- if that weren't enough the sweet taste of failure means that if they ever damage you then you heal back up almost instantly. ANY MODEL (other than nix himself) LOSING A DUEL TRIGGERS THIS. when a rat attacks something A MODEL IS GUARANTEED TO LOSE between the two of them.

-emptiness is pretty much game over. negative flips with a 2 inch melee range mean no one will be escaping you (and when they fail you heal). they also probably won't attack you because, when they miss, you'll heal. at best they focus a strike just to be even and you laugh it off because you are a spirit

- if all else fails just heal yourself with drain essence

-his weak damage is 4 (highest of any 7 ss model anyone? double check?)

that's not even everything he has going for him and that is worth well more than 7SS. just park him in the middle of everything, activate him first, and (0) emptiness and they have to spend the rest of the game dealing with you and cannot accomplish anything else

4) RatCatchers are the lynchpin in the swarm - if I was playing against Hamelin that's where I'd start.

its true that they are the lynchpin. but killing them first, which you have to do, is also a big waste of time because they will be right back.

playing against seamus you might think killing belles is a waste of time (which it kind of is) but doesn't even compare to this. it still costs seamus a high crow which he'd rather use for something else to bring one back, and if he's already gone she won't be coming back this turn. not the case with ratcatchers because any rat can do it and its simply an action with no chance of failure.

if WUWU's assessment is correct (which, having not watched the game, i'm completely inclined to agree with) that a player can make tons of mistakes, be barely mentally present, and would have won by simply having started with 2 rat catchers. they are amazing, there is no reason to ever not have 2 on the board at all times.

10) The game takes a long time with a Hamelin crew. Not sure how realistic the timeframes in gaining ground are in this respect (85 mins?)

the time frames in gaining ground at realistic to everyone except hamelin. problem with hamelin or problem with gaining ground? we've been playing tournaments like that for a year and haven't had any problems

solid post, i'm glad that people playing him more will bring out these flaws. even if you think he is not overpowered, just a little imbalanced, if that's all he was that would be fine. annoying in a competitive sense, but still fine. being either of those things doesn't break the game. not being able to finish before you have to go to work the next day, and having to take the shoelaces, belts, knives, etc. away from your opponents for their own safety does.

[Sandwich]

my main complaint about him

I've never even seen herd dog used.

Things you are missing:

-Spirit (half damage from non magical sources) + Magic resist 2 = unkillable pain in the ass

- if that weren't enough the sweet taste of failure means that if they ever damage you then you heal back up almost instantly. ANY MODEL (other than nix himself) LOSING A DUEL TRIGGERS THIS. when a rat attacks something A MODEL IS GUARANTEED TO LOSE between the two of them.

-emptiness is pretty much game over. negative flips with a 2 inch melee range mean no one will be escaping you (and when they fail you heal). they also probably won't attack you because, when they miss, you'll heal. at best they focus a strike just to be even and you laugh it off because you are a spirit

- if all else fails just heal yourself with drain essence

-his weak damage is 4 (highest of any 7 ss model anyone? double check?)

that's not even everything he has going for him and that is worth well more than 7SS. just park him in the middle of everything, activate him first, and (0) emptiness and they have to spend the rest of the game dealing with you and cannot accomplish anything else

its true that they are the lynchpin. but killing them first, which you have to do, is also a big waste of time because they will be right back.

playing against seamus you might think killing belles is a waste of time (which it kind of is) but doesn't even compare to this. it still costs seamus a high crow which he'd rather use for something else to bring one back, and if he's already gone she won't be coming back this turn. not the case with ratcatchers because any rat can do it and its simply an action with no chance of failure.

if WUWU's assessment is correct (which, having not watched the game, i'm completely inclined to agree with) that a player can make tons of mistakes, be barely mentally present, and would have won by simply having started with 2 rat catchers. they are amazing, there is no reason to ever not have 2 on the board at all times.

the time frames in gaining ground at realistic to everyone except hamelin. problem with hamelin or problem with gaining ground? we've been playing tournaments like that for a year and haven't had any problems

solid post, i'm glad that people playing him more will bring out these flaws. even if you think he is not overpowered, just a little imbalanced, if that's all he was that would be fine. annoying in a competitive sense, but still fine. being either of those things doesn't break the game. not being able to finish before you have to go to work the next day, and having to take the shoelaces, belts, knives, etc. away from your opponents for their own safety does.

1.(0) Herd Dog. In a total of 20+ games I've used it twice.

Once was to get a Stolen in place for No Humanity and the other was to pull Terrified Rats in so they could be killed.

2. WUWU was correct. I was not sound mentally and the other player had a powerful strategy set in motion. In that state, there wasn't any hope for me.

3. Rat Catchers. Two Rat Catchers are not a necessity, they do not greatly increase mobility, they do not greatly empower the Rats vastly more than a single Rat Catcher.

Give me two days and we'll get a batrep up. :]

[cain]

Quote:

4) RatCatchers are the lynchpin in the swarm - if I was playing against Hamelin that's where I'd start.

its true that they are the lynchpin. but killing them first, which you have to do, is also a big waste of time because they will be right back.

Right back for free isnt it?

The example lists take 5 rats, the RC costs 3. Means your rat swarm is mostly gone if you have to summon one.

And whos gonna do enough damage now to get more rats?

Loose the RC a second time and even with "one free per turn rat" your are out.

People seem to forget that someone have to catch the damage output of the opponents crew.

No reason to waste any AP on respawning rats. THIS would be waste of time.

Stolen are hidden or mostly sacrificed anyway. So whoever guide the rats as your damage dealers into combat (either Hamelin himself or the RC) will have to eat anything the opponent deals out.

-his weak damage is 4 (highest of any 7 ss model anyone? double check?)

So after Hamelins star is falling a bit now Nix getting the same kind of curious arguments for overpower?

He has a gimmick reversed damage chart making all discussion about "high" damage obsolete. In the same way i could whine about his severe damage of 2 because its the lowest of nearly any model in malifaux.

Btw, witchlings get a weak damage of 4 (with ram card) too. For 4 ss. And they can onehit poor Nix because they dont care about

-Spirit (half damage from non magical sources) + Magic resist 2 = unkillable pain in the ass

And no one complains about overpowered witchlings...

Yes spirit + magic resi is a good combo. So what, the magic missile damage drops to around 2-3 same as physical attacks. So bar all self healing, 6 wounds is far from unkillable.

[Hookers]

bro. :hello:

seriously bro?

you seem kind of far removed from the conversation.

he asked what he was missing about what makes nix worth 7 ss. i told him (and injected my opinion that i think he is worth far more than 7). the fact that one person thinks an ability that i've never seen used, and that sandwich has used twice is nix's best ability says a lot. nix has tons of stuff. its all amazing. in fact its all so amazing that you don't even get to use most of it because the best abilities are too good not to use.

Right back for free isnt it?

The example lists take 5 rats, the RC costs 3. Means your rat swarm is mostly gone if you have to summon one.

And whos gonna do enough damage now to get more rats?

Loose the RC a second time and even with "one free per turn rat" your are out.

People seem to forget that someone have to catch the damage output of the opponents crew.

No reason to waste any AP on respawning rats. THIS would be waste of time.

Stolen are hidden or mostly sacrificed anyway. So whoever guide the rats as your damage dealers into combat (either Hamelin himself or the RC) will have to eat anything the opponent deals out.

rat catchers drop a rat when they die. stolen drop a rat when they die. now it only costs you one rat. if something is in a position to kill a ratcatcher then you are in a position to kill it as well. you will always have the last activation against every crew, every turn, so kill it and there's your last rat. back for free.

So after Hamelins star is falling a bit now Nix getting the same kind of curious arguments for overpower?

He has a gimmick reversed damage chart making all discussion about "high" damage obsolete. In the same way i could whine about his severe damage of 2 because its the lowest of nearly any model in malifaux.

Btw, witchlings get a weak damage of 4 (with ram card) too. For 4 ss. And they can onehit poor Nix because they dont care about

And no one complains about overpowered witchlings...

high minimum damage does not make arguments about damage output obsolete. it means you don't have to try to put out a lot of damage, it just happens. i'd much rather seamus' gun be 7/6/4. and in fact his damage output is almost meaningless compared to the rest of him. he could be 1/1/1 and still be amazing (like jack daw). also his minimum is now 5 if you count blight counters

witchlings require a trigger (ie they actually care about what cards are playing, something hamelin's crew as a whole lacks) and can also be killed. i'm happy that they have a magical weapon. they are few and far between.

Yes spirit + magic resi is a good combo. So what, the magic missile damage drops to around 2-3 same as physical attacks. So bar all self healing, 6 wounds is far from unkillable.

you can't say bar all self healing. that is a big part of it. he is much more manageable without it.

do i think nix is too good for his cost? most definitely. is that really part of this conversation? not at all. i was showing him why nix is good. he is annoying as crap but not that much more so than alps or a lot of other stuff, and he has much less to do with why hamelin sucks to play against than the whole "i don't care about cards or any of my models lives and have endlessly activating rats so this turn will never end, much less the game" thing.

sorry about the :tj:

Edited April 6, 2011 by Hookers

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

What is preventing a placement of a corpse counter? I am not seeing anything on the cards what I could have missed it.

Abilities are Voracious Rats and Devoured. Most of his crew will not generate a corpse counter and will replace a killed model with a rat deny the placement of a corpse counter.

Can lure them out one by one and deny a new rat but that won't help summon more in and if they close the distance which they can quite quickly than they will be replenishing their numbers with your dead.

[magicpockets]

On the discussion about re-summoning Rat Catchers I'm with Cain. You lose one it's two rats to bring it back (three but you get one for the rat catcher) and, THIS IS IMPORTANT, you can't bring it back until your next activation at the earliest (presuming you haven't activated rats yet). That's a good window to further reduce the numbers in the swarm.

Yes you could argue that you get a rat from a stolen, but in my experience they're so far out of range it's not immediately useful. Also -

if something is in a position to kill a ratcatcher then you are in a position to kill it as well.

Come on mate, that's a bit of a sweeping statement. The threat range of a rats swarm is 1" Any 8"+ spell/weapon is going to be hard to counter quickly

Re Nix, thanks for the ideas Hookers and I'll try them out next game. Problem might be I'm keeping him back in a support role (using herd dog to get stacks of movement and smell blood (??) to keep up with the swarm). Will report back

Lastly, def do not need two rat catchers in a 35ss game, I'd rather take the 2/3 extra rats and summon up if needed (which chances are you won't)

Edited April 7, 2011 by magicpockets
changing some flame inciting language ;)

[Hookers]

Come on mate, that's a bit of a sweeping statement. The threat range of a rats swarm is 1" Any 8"+ spell/weapon is going to be hard to counter quickly

Lastly, def do not need two rat catchers in a 35ss game, I'd rather take the 2/3 extra rats and summon up if needed (which chances are you won't)

actually its a 6" threat range and increase by 5 for every rat you have in the swarm.

just indulge me and try taking 2. it allows you to be in 2-3 places at once, fight on different fronts and potentially generate more rats. it also ensures that you will out activate every crew, every turn, every game. it also triples your damage output instead of only doubling it. and means that the same model that killed your first rat catcher won't be able to kill the second one easily, so if you just wait to go with it last, from a safe place, you can always have the last activation and always get to summon another rat catcher with a fresh bunch of rats that were just slaughtered.

[cain]

actually its a 6" threat range and increase by 5 for every rat you have in the swarm.

How is this calculated? Moving will stop at a certain point.

If you have 3 rats for example, one move and the others use writhing mass, so you get 2 bites at a model originally 6" away. Thats clear.

If the second/third rat move after the (0) action she is around 10" away but cant do anything else. You get 1 rat at 5", and 2 wounded rats at 10". Rats done. Warning, the 10" rats are out of RCs voracious rats.

Rcs turn, move up and slaughter, if you have been in contact with the rats before moving you are just in range.

New rats in basecontact with old rats, so you win 30mm.

With a similar move to the first you can do 2 bites at around 15". Rats done, no chance to further activation and all rats out of the RCs revival range...

If you have many many rats i imagine you can combine the above with (1) rat problem and get another move, but you need a big swarm to make it worth...

[magicpockets]

actually its a 6" threat range and increase by 5 for every rat you have in the swarm.

I disagree, but think Cain has covered it well in his post above

just indulge me and try taking 2. it allows you to be in 2-3 places at once, fight on different fronts and potentially generate more rats. it also ensures that you will out activate every crew, every turn, every game. it also triples your damage output instead of only doubling it. and means that the same model that killed your first rat catcher won't be able to kill the second one easily, so if you just wait to go with it last, from a safe place, you can always have the last activation and always get to summon another rat catcher with a fresh bunch of rats that were just slaughtered.

I use Hamelin for my second flank and really prefer the extra rats rather than the RC, however you're right about the extra "kill rats" to get another round of combat. However I'd worry my opponent would go home at that point

I'll try it out and report back

[Ratty]

You get an extra kill rats, but you have less rats to begin with.. I think it will probably cancel out, as you will have less offensive ability to start the Ratpack rolling. But when it gets rolling it will be better.

[Hookers]

I use Hamelin for my second flank and really prefer the extra rats rather than the RC, however you're right about the extra "kill rats" to get another round of combat. However I'd worry my opponent would go home at that point

THAT'S A BINGO! :AR15firin

haha

yes exactly.

hamelin doesn't need to do that to win. and if you can still win without doing that, since it is the most tedious way to play, then i guess its in your best interest not to so your opponent will want to at least try to play. however making players play under his potential just so that people will play against them cannot be a good thing.

also @ taking more rats instead: every turn you get a stolen, which is another rat and every rat catcher effectively adds 100% to the amount of rats you have. only against extremely elite crews (4 or less models) would this potentially not be a good idea, but even then i think it is always still better because you could just sit back another turn before engaging so you have another stolen/rat which is actually 3 rats.

additionally rat catchers are your only real way to accomplish interact objectives.

[magicpockets]

every turn you get a stolen

Why do you? Just because you could summon a stolen doesn't mean you should - many times I take the extra AP with Hamelin, especially since void changed.

additionally rat catchers are your only real way to accomplish interact objectives.

That's right, apart from nix, stolen, hamelin, canine remains, terror tots, alps, sorrows, obedient wretch...

Seriously though, most effective way I've found is summoning a stolen near an objective and then using it next turn to interact (or same turn for a (1) interact)

[Sandwich]

Why do you? Just because you could summon a stolen doesn't mean you should - many times I take the extra AP with Hamelin, especially since void changed.

That's right, apart from nix, stolen, hamelin, canine remains, terror tots, alps, sorrows, obedient wretch...

Seriously though, most effective way I've found is summoning a stolen near an objective and then using it next turn to interact (or same turn for a (1) interact)

Well, usually its a great idea to (1)Lure Malifaux Citizen and then sack it with (0)Useless Toy in order to spread No Humanity.

Though I will agree that I summon them far less now due to the change in Indiscriminate Void, instead favoring other mean things.

[cain]

Well, usually its a great idea to (1)Lure Malifaux Citizen and then sack it with (0)Useless Toy in order to spread No Humanity.

This way you have to keep an eye to your RC+rat swarm as long you dont hunt seperated models.

If Hamelin doesnt keep some distance you catch them all in the blast and with Wp 2 running from terrifying is nearly guaranteed.

Isnt it more safe to run them in the middle of enemies and waiting for them to kill it? You could get paralyzed models as bonus.

[Wodschow]

As a former Necron player even suggesting the following leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.. But well..

Rules Manual - page 55: "A model cannot be Summoned if its base does not fit where it must be placed."

Rats have to be summoned into base contact, so if you surround a model before you kill it then no Rat will be generated...

Not sure how efficient it would be for most crews, but I imagine an Alp bomb could clear out a Ratswarm fairly well like this.

BUT this is a stupid rules lawyering solution.

Rats should 'replace' (not -replace-) killed models, not be summoned into base contact with them - as other than the above discussion and the slight and unnecessary movement they get there isn't any difference, and it really just is an unnecessary and tedious process.

[Hookers]

as other than the above discussion and the slight and unnecessary movement they get there isn't any difference, and it really just is an unnecessary and tedious process.

more nails on the head!

@ sandwich and magic pockets

for the sake of argument i'm going to concede that in whatever way you play him is the best way to play him.

however, saying that he doesn't have to do something and it is therefore not a problem is silly. lillith doesn't have to ever attack with her greatsword. perdita doesn't ever have to shoot things. seamus doesn't ever have to make you take terrifying tests. you get my point.

if a player does choose to summon a stolen every turn, and turn it into a rat, that means they will have a sizable swarm almost regardless of how many they started with and how many enemies they've killed. then you have 2 rat catchers and triple whatever amount you actually have.

i have no problem with hamelin actually being used, pipesin' stuff, casting spells, etc. that shows that the player is actually doing something. while you may prefer to play that way, nothing makes you play that way, and the fact is a rat swarm with 2 catchers is really effective (so their is incentive to play that way) yet really boring. you are relying on numerous activations from weak models to do your damage instead of one activation from LCB, for instance. the end result is the same, whatever you surround with 5 rats is still going to die after 15 attacks at plus flips minimum damage 2. but killing it that way takes like 30 minutes.

its an army of models that can take down anything eventually and at the same time is next to valueless to a hamelin player because there is little chance of any of it actually being in danger.

so instead of being like "is this a good time to bring out LCB?" or any other sort of tactical decision, hamelin can just throw rats out there and not care what happens.

however, that is not to say it does not take skill or thought to play hamelin well. when you are playing him well it is just really difficult for the opponent to tell since the bulk of your crew is expendable, you don't seem to be having to utilize the most important resource in the game (cards), and unlike nearly every other summon in the game hamelin is getting stuff for free as actions without having to even flip a card. so those mechanics are actually worse for the hamelin player because you could play the best game of your life and no one will notice.

playing against that is really frustrating. it also takes a lot of time. i think i'm at the point where if there are like 3 rats around something i'll just take it off the board to save some time, since you know, fate is meaningless. i'm starting to get into this whole nihilism thing :bored:

[magicpockets]

Rules Manual - page 55: "A model cannot be Summoned if its base does not fit where it must be placed."

Oh no you didn't *takes cover*

[Sandwich]

Rules Manual - page 55: "A model cannot be Summoned if its base does not fit where it must be placed."

This is a great way to stem the tide of Rats.

The problem lies in that you are doing so on a technicality.

:[

[magicpockets]

This is a great way to stem the tide of Rats.

The problem lies in that you are doing so on a technicality.

:[

Why is it a technicality? It a rule plain and simple.

Just because it makes things more difficult for Hamelin players doesn't mean it's invalid or less important than other rules.

If I flip a red joker for damage and kill your master outright have I only won on a "technicality". No, it's a rule - same as needing space for summoning.

You don't hear Dreamer players who can't summon/place nightmares in combat because there's no room complaining about it being a "technicality" - so why should you?

Admittedly it seems like there is a question about RAW vs RAI (which can be resolved as summoned vs replaced) given the mechanic of Hamelins crew, but as it stands rules is rules

[Sandwich]

Why is it a technicality? It a rule plain and simple.

Just because it makes things more difficult for Hamelin players doesn't mean it's invalid or less important than other rules.

If I flip a red joker for damage and kill your master outright have I only won on a "technicality". No, it's a rule - same as needing space for summoning.

You don't hear Dreamer players who can't summon/place nightmares in combat because there's no room complaining about it being a "technicality" - so why should you?

Admittedly it seems like there is a question about RAW vs RAI (which can be resolved as summoned vs replaced) given the mechanic of Hamelins crew, but as it stands rules is rules

Well, much in the same way that it is illegal for one to use a small amount of cannabis, this is generally ignored, even by local law enforcement.

At least on the West Coast.

In no other foreseeable circumstance would the inability to summon a model be reliant on the lack of placement.

I fully understand the existence of the rule and its purpose, but it only works to stem Hamelin's rat swarm and nothing more.

In a tight knit Rat Swarm of 5 Rats, you would, on average, permenantly lose 3 out of those 5 due to a lack of placement as the placement of Rats for Voracious Rats would be instantaneous.

Although I can safely say that for any opponent, Hamelin outright losing 3+ rats each activation is never a bad thing. :]

[Ratty]

Well, much in the same way that it is illegal for one to use a small amount of cannabis, this is generally ignored, even by local law enforcement.

At least on the West Coast.

In no other foreseeable circumstance would the inability to summon a model be reliant on the lack of placement.

I fully understand the existence of the rule and its purpose, but it only works to stem Hamelin's rat swarm and nothing more.

In a tight knit Rat Swarm of 5 Rats, you would, on average, permenantly lose 3 out of those 5 due to a lack of placement as the placement of Rats for Voracious Rats would be instantaneous.

Although I can safely say that for any opponent, Hamelin outright losing 3+ rats each activation is never a bad thing. :]

I'm with magic pocket. If I use Spirit Food and there is no place I can't place a Gaki, simple as that. Why should rats be different. Seeing as they have the same rule.

[Elazar]

I think it's probably safe to say that Hamelin's growing horde is one of the sort of reasons why the rule exists at all, something has to keep things at a manageable level!

[Sandwich]

I think it's probably safe to say that Hamelin's growing horde is one of the sort of reasons why the rule exists at all, something has to keep things at a manageable level!

That's what I was saying.

Although I was more along the lines of "You shouldn't need fine print to win"

[magicpockets]

I was more along the lines of "You shouldn't need fine print to win"

Equally you shouldn't need to bend the rules to win

[Adran]

In a tight knit Rat Swarm of 5 Rats, you would, on average, permenantly lose 3 out of those 5 due to a lack of placement as the placement of Rats for Voracious Rats would be instantaneous.

Although I can safely say that for any opponent, Hamelin outright losing 3+ rats each activation is never a bad thing. :]

I haven't played for or against Hamelin yet, but from what people are saying, these large rat swarms are what are making him unfun to play due to the length of time required to do anything.

There being a rule which makes it in-efficient to use these large swarms stops them occuring, and taking so long to activate makes perfect sense.

Also allows tactical placing of enemies to prevent replacing the rat.

Sounds all good to me.

Phil