Wodschow Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 The whole idea of Viktoria and her doppelganger is that they're indistinguishable.. Not sure whether they can share the same quantum state though.. Immediate guess would be no, so.. Treat them like fermions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Well the miners have been horribly misused by both the Guild and the M&SU. This is true, but it's a drop in the bucket, as there are no victimized miners to play in Malifaux. They're just in the background where they can be safely ignored, whereas the victimized women are named and play a fairly major role in the game. Oh, and I agree that with the faux-Victorian era, "empowered women" would be the exception rather than the norm, but we're missing out on a lot of norms for the period--the lack of involvement of the Church, for one thing, and we're adding quite a bit of gadgetry and mythology that, at best, means we're looking at a faux-Victorian setting. I think that a lot of people misinterpret Colette. Yes she runs a burlesque theater, yes there might be some shady back room dances from time to time, but what she did was get women who were just whores on the street and gave them safety and a place to make money without sleeping around. From the descriptions in Rising Powers, it seems there's still quite a bit of sleeping around and just a modicum of safety--after all, Ramos is using the Star as just another resource in his war. Colette is not a prostitute. She has too much pride too stoop so as to do that. She personally may not be a prostitute. She just runs a cathouse. Because, you know, she has her pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 The models are equal stat-wise, but that's about it. Females are shown as victims of abuse (Kirai, Rasputina, Colette, Molly) and workers in the sex trades (Kirai, Sybelle and Colette, who may have never "stooped that low" but seems to employ her girls as such). Kirai may have started there, but she's an incredibly strong figure - she just doesn't realize it. Rasputina has taken the entire Cult of December down a peg and elevated the formerly-abused women to superior status. Even poor Molly has more going on than anyone realizes, I think. As to the men... Hamelin is far more abused as Rasputina, in much the same way. Bishop has had at least as rough a life as Kirai did. And they may not have names, but I'm pretty sure the Steamborgs and Witchling Stalkers and Punk Zombies came off rather badly. Malifaux is a world where thousands upon thousands of people, both men and women, slave in indentured servitude with no hope. If anything, it points to MORE respect for the women. Are there abusive backgrounds? Yes, but pretty much every one of them has risen above it to become something greater - that's why they get names, and the Steamborg doesn't. That's not exploitation of women - pretending those situations never exist is. All IMHO, of course, but looking at someone like Kirai and saying "Oh, she was a prostitute, how demeaning to women that you'd create a character with that background!" is a shallow, destructive faux-feminism, just the same as "They show skin, that's exploitive!" You have to take the characters as a whole, and appreciate who they are in their world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Honestly, I'm curious here. How does Malifaux compare to Warmachine and Infinity in terms of popularity? Well I can only go by two things. How many people play the game at my FLGS and the impact at conventions I have never seen anyone play Infinity and I would say our Malifaux group is a little smaller then the Warmachine group. As far as convention impact. Wyrd and Malifaux had the longest line for product at Gencon last year. From what I here is was an absolute mad house the whole con. That is pretty huge. And at that point the game had only been a year old. Warmachine didn't have that kinda line its 2nd year out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 The models are equal stat-wise, but that's about it. Females are shown as victims of abuse (Kirai, Rasputina, Colette, Molly) and workers in the sex trades (Kirai, Sybelle and Colette, who may have never "stooped that low" but seems to employ her girls as such). And some woman are shown as extremely powerful. The top three Guild members are woman. As far as abused men. The Witchling Stalkers are enslaved wizards. The Death Marshals seem to be trading there souls to fight undead better(that is more by look of model though, not fluff). Bishop and the convict gunslinger both look to have had hard lives. The poor Executioner ain't got no hands. Ryle is an insane cyborg killing maching. The Steam borg Executioner also is part human. And then of course there are the desperate mercenaries who are used and abused for cash. I'd say being "put down by the man" is a pretty universal theme in Malifaux for both men and women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poko Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 She personally may not be a prostitute. She just runs a cathouse. Because, you know, she has her pride Well, that's how strong, empowered women act, by using the weak women for their gain. And men, but that's obvious. but we're missing out on a lot of norms for the period--the lack of involvement of the Church, for one thing, and we're adding quite a bit of gadgetry and mythology that, at best, means we're looking at a faux-Victorian setting.Yes, that's why you have so many strong, empowered women in the game in the first place. And while Malif lacks some of the victorian elements, all the BAD ones are there so assuming just the one that offends your sensibilities would be gone is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazza Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 the silent ones are best vessels for december, envying the male priests cos of their power so the males cut out their tongues even without speech, they were still more powerfull if i'm not mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 JP, I sit corrected on her not running a bit of a cathouse on the side. It seems like it's far less institutionalized than it might be, I think the subtlety makes for a nice layer. Since this discussion started I've been watching a lot of the women I go to school with. In my art classes (particularly printmaking with the acids and the inks) we KNOW we'll destroy our clothing. Most of the women still choose to wear what they would describe as cute (fashionable I guess) clothes that show off the fact that they are women. They're proud of it (at all ages, as they should be) and flaunt those differences to some degree. I find that most women that have not been abused or have other experiences that cause them to feel shame are like that. They're okay with being different, and prefer to not wear men's clothes very often. It seems like what's really bothering is the social stigma around the game and setting as a whole. I work in a comic and game shop on the weekends. Whenever this comes up (and we're not an 18+ shop either) I explain that it's a steampunk-horror game with fairly adult themes. Some people will get bent out of shape and defensive about it no matter what. That's their issue, not mine, or ours. We have some "kids" getting into that are in their late teens. They're coming over GW products for the most part, and love the elegance of the system, the compelling richness of the background and the fact that they consider it to actually have some positive role models. A friend (who is a father) of Hispanic descent LOVES the Ortegas for that reason (apparently his girlfriend does too). I can see how people would get offended, I'm not very sympathetic to the call that it's demeaning when so many women (that I know and trust) have told me they like it because of the portrayals. To the Original Poster Bartalli: Sorry your girlfriend doesn't like it, different tastes I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazza Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 we're adding quite a bit of gadgetry and mythology that, at best, means we're looking at a faux-Victorian setting. a malifaux-victorian setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 AND... This idea of women being demeaned by being victims or sex workers throws me. Are these people not deserving of the same basic respect as any other human being? Addressing social issues is NOT the same as condoning them, If anything it seems as though they're saying that someone can come from "less than desirable" backgrounds and still be strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bas1 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I always figured the coated Vik would be the doppleganger, since the doppleganger model has exposed tissue for its back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Malifaux was never described as being a part of "our real" history. It's like our history, just... different. Wyrded out I guess you might say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I always figured the coated Vik would be the doppleganger, since the doppleganger model has exposed tissue for its back. That one is in mid transformation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) AND... This idea of women being demeaned by being victims or sex workers throws me. Are these people not deserving of the same basic respect as any other human being? Addressing social issues is NOT the same as condoning them, If anything it seems as though they're saying that someone can come from "less than desirable" backgrounds and still be strong. And they're doing it entirely with women. Just like how Frank Miller shows that people can be strong even if they started off low on society's totem pole through writing about his favorite subject. It seems like what's really bothering is the social stigma around the game and setting as a whole. I work in a comic and game shop on the weekends. Whenever this comes up (and we're not an 18+ shop either) I explain that it's a steampunk-horror game with fairly adult themes. Some people will get bent out of shape and defensive about it no matter what. That's their issue, not mine, or ours. I agree that it's their issue. However, not all of us are blessed with positions in which we can simply ignore the misgivings of others--suffice it to say I have held a position where even being seen drinking or smoking (legally, mind you) would make my workday extremely difficult. Ultimately, I question the taste of some of the models and wonder if there isn't someone on board who has romanticized Victorian-era prostitutes, but I still like Malifaux quite a bit. Oh, and Ciaran, I'd argue that the primary legal business of the Star would be the cathouse--a show serves to draw in customers, alcohol makes a profit and lowers inhibitions, and then the cash starts to flow. But that's me. Edited February 24, 2011 by JPRoth1980 More info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakshaani Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 OH GOD NO! The Woes of Forbidden Delight wear nothing, but a slightly provocative long dress!! How DARE they? Again.. Have you seen the succubi of other companies? Actually.. Have you EVER seen a succubus dressing decently? I haven't. You could of course ask why there's succubi-like creatures in Malifaux in the first place, but then we're back to blame the miniature industry as a whole and not Wyrd in particular. Sophie often (but not always) gets pretty cute outfits. Mind you, she's the company mascot, so, they work hard to take care of her. That said, when you start digging into Steampunk costuming, corsets are the standard. http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/151/5/8/Steampunk_Girl_by_Larkie_Star.jpg (OMG huge!) (Illusionary corset) But there are other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) And they're doing it entirely with women. Just like how Frank Miller shows that people can be strong even if they started off low on society's totem pole through writing about his favorite subject. Leveticus is ancient, as is Zoraida, neither allow it to be an excuse. (ageism) Hoffman was ravaged by a disease when he was young (polio??), yet is able to make it in Malifaux. (handicapped abuse) Bishop and the Convict Gunslinger (among others) both come from forced labor, and are arguably doing what they do best. (slave labor) Ramos is a non-white in one of the most racist periods of world history. (racism) Hamelin is a homeless beggar-thug. (poverty) Bad Juju pissed off a very powerful wizard a long, long time ago. Now he's a slave to someone else's will. (cursed labor!) Seamus is criminally insane, and victimizes others rather than take his electro shock therapy. I made that last half up. (mental health issues) Children of Malifaux are abused, used as totems, as are the Stolen. (child abuse of all sorts) The sad, horrible fact is that in conflicts around the world women and children are hurt disproportionately higher than any other group. In this case we get to see them fighting back. To say that a game for grown ups should be an agent of social change is to expect it to work well outside of its reasonable parameters. I'm not trying to combative, tone is so difficult online without strange emotes. I'm enjoying the tenor of this discussion over the past hour or two. I like that it's been more civil and far less heated. Edited February 24, 2011 by Ciaran To add a disclaimer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sophie often (but not always) gets pretty cute outfits. Mind you, she's the company mascot, so, they work hard to take care of her. Ah.. I'll give you that, Sophie occasionally wears clothes. She is naked just as often though.. And wears about the same amount as Lilitu does the rest of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 And they're doing it entirely with women. Now you're just starting to ignore points you don't like. People have pointed out a number of abused male characters, named and otherwise, and why there are problems with your theory that giving names to the abused female backgrounds somehow makes them highlights for exploitation. Ignoring these and repeating the same (disproven) things over again doesn't help your case any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Horror comes in all sorts of different veins. At the center of its little black heart,Malifaux has a core of horror as bright as a refueled Soulstone. They present this underlying theme of horror in hundreds of ways,and that to me is one of its best attributes. What makes it such a compelling game is that no one just gives up and gives in....or at least none of the people we play lol. Like it says on the box...Cheat your Fate or Lose your Soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Horror comes in all sorts of different veins. At the center of its little black heart,Malifaux has a core of horror as bright as a refueled Soulstone. They present this underlying theme of horror in hundreds of ways,and that to me is one of its best attributes. What makes it such a compelling game is that no one just gives up and gives in....or at least none of the people we play lol. Like it says on the box...Cheat your Fate or Lose your Soul. Indeed the scaryest monster is not one that wants to kill us, but wants to sleep with us, the worst part is usually we like it Back on topic, we shouldn't treat women like items for sex, but remember women are not made of glass won't shatter at a moments notice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Now you're just starting to ignore points you don't like. People have pointed out a number of abused male characters, named and otherwise, and why there are problems with your theory that giving names to the abused female backgrounds somehow makes them highlights for exploitation. Ignoring these and repeating the same (disproven) things over again doesn't help your case any. Actually, I've ignored points that are tangential, or that I've missed--it happens. There are some men who have less than stellar lives, but they're background characters, or completely nameless. And the majority of the name characters, at least that Ciaran brought up, either had their misfortunes brought amongst themselves or were just the victims of darned bad luck. Ciaran: Ramos? Non-white? I'm not seeing it on the model, nor have I read anything where he has to deal with the ramifications of racism. Did you mean Marcus, who has rejected society and become a sort of noble savage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hell, I missed the flame :/ Any news ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Geee, do you know, how politacally / feminism / genderism / rasistic / all these things together table top WARgame would be Booooooring (yes, with The Big ? As I can state one of my favourite sitcoms, what it would be? Butch Accountant and the Yuppie Kid ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wow... I go to bed, go to work and - 20 pages. Has this REALLY not run it's course yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I had a really long post ready for a response but Keltheos talked me down off of the ledge. Sorry. Carry on with your discussion about the men and women that mean a lot to me. :gunman: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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