Nicodem - Far too good?

[Geliron]

Hi out there!

Finally my local gaming group tends to play Malifaux.

I picked The Undertaker´s Lot box set and after a few weeks of playing it seems he is a bit overpowered.

Every game we played ended with a massacre.

That are the points my opponents couldn´t handle:

Ranged Combat is Useless:

Drawing LoS to my models is impossible (The Fog). If they get LoS, they often cannot cheat due to soft cover. Bolster Undead granting +2 Df making it impossible to hit.

In the few cases they actually hit, the damage is extremly reduced by Hard2Wound + Armor (Grave Spirit/Nurses)

Zombie Fodder:

In combination with the extrem ranged resistance, Nicodem himself is unkillable.

Speed:

Ressurectionists are by far the fastest Faction. The Mortimer is the nastiest litte helper EVER!

Casting "Fresh Meat!" twice a round isn´t uncommon. That´s an 22" charge for K9s (18" for Samurai, 17" for Flesh Constructs, etc.) even without nurses!

With them you can do a lot of insane things.

Reanimate:

If I play against a CC friendly Crew, there are often more Corpses I can reanimate. My opponent don´t have a shiver of hope to succes.

Even against CC unfriendly Crews I tend to summon some models, so I start every turn with more SS as I startet with.

Summoning Flesh Constructs:

Another Bane are "Ceaseless Advancing" Flesh Constructs.

If I activate my Grave Grave Spirit at the end of the turn, my opponent has to deal with a 10 Wound, Hard2Wound, Armor 2 Flesh Construct, engaging models 18" from the place the Grave spirit started.

So please, tell me what the weak spots of Nicodem are.

How can I be defeated?

Edited January 27, 2011 by Geliron

[saerko]

What are your opponents playing? Nicodem is far from overpowered--try taking him against the Dreamer dropping an Alp Bomb some time.

One thing about Malifaux is that it's easy when you're first getting into the game to stumble upon a powerful combo before the rest of your group, and then wind up able to milk it for all it's worth. In my case, I started with the Dreamer and didn't lose a game until I switched to--of all masters--Nicodem. It's not that Nicodem is bad or the Dreamer is good, it's just that the tactics for the Dreamer were apparent early to me, while Nicodem will take some more time.

[Geliron]

My opponents usually play Sonnia, Lady J, Rasputina or Lilith.

We don´t own rising power. So I cannot tell how the alp bomb works. I´m not sure if it can beat a Nicodems Threathrange.

[nilus]

Sounds like he's playing Guild. Has he though about adding a few Ortegas. Nino can shoot through fog pretty easily.

And Lilith can easily out position Nicodem with her spells and abilities.

Also the biggest question is what Strategy are you guys playing.

[Sliver Chocobo]

My opponents usually play Sonnia, Lady J, Rasputina or Lilith.

We don´t own rising power. So I cannot tell how the alp bomb works. I´m not sure if it can beat a Nicodems Threathrange.

I've play nicodem once (with Lilith as per normal with me) and I walk all over him and I'm a not a verry good player, yeh I now rules well but I often make bad choices in game, and Lady J she be better at Lilith at taking down Nicodem and believe me a peacekeeper with fast and melee expert is one scary robot

[Talishko]

Nicodem is everything but overpowered.

Fog is very good but you need a 4+ of masks to pull it off, might not have that in your hand. Also he is quite slow and Bolster undead has a range of 10" so with this much running about you might end up with your zombies outside of the bubble.

If your zombies are more then 3" within the fog (thus hiding from shooty enemies) then they cannot charge out of it either due to having no LoS to target model.

Besides there are some models ignoring LoS for ranged attacks (eg. Guild Austringers).

And the biggest thing: Strategy. While Nico's crew is quite strong if they stay in one bunch, many strategies require your crew to split up and get to different areas of the table. I know that many people start playing without strategies to make it easyer to pick up the rules but I would advice against it. Drop the schemes for the first few games so you can concentrate on just one objective, but do play strategies. Makes the game so much better and more interesting. And anyway, there is no such as 'no objective', if you don't draw a strategy you just play annihilation which is an objective on it's own.

[Wodschow]

Okay.. I've never heard this sort of complaints about Nicodem, not since the time Canines could dig up corpse counters anyway..

+2 Df does not make the Undead impossible to hit and they're certainly not the fastest faction..

Soeh yeah.. Do you play strategies and schemes or do you just jump one another and see who comes out on top? Nicodem is probably the best master for the attrition game..

[Gensuke626]

Pandora can give Nicodem a run for his money. Taking away the Undead's immunity to Morale and throwing terrifying models at the corpses is quite painful.

[Hatchethead]

Nico is strong under ideal circumstances; tight grouping with Fog and Bolster attempting a Strategy that allows him to stick together versus an enemy with no real AOE threat. Even then, he's hardly what I'd call OP.

When our group first started up, our Perdita player was hated by all for the Ortega's grievous alpha strike capability (moving/attacking with the entire crew in a single activation). It's only just recently that semi-regular players have begun to figure her out. It LOOKS overpowered on paper, and certainly feels OP if you're not prepared for it, but once you know her tricks it's simply a matter of adaptation.

[Dark Alleycat]

Nicodem is also very squishy in Melee.

[Vondur]

I just played my McMorning list against Nicodem and I completely mopped the floor with him.

[tadaka]

Pandora can give Nicodem a run for his money. Taking away the Undead's immunity to Morale and throwing terrifying models at the corpses is quite painful.

Um im pritty sure this is wrong. Terrifying only effects living models. That is not the same as a wp duel. I have not been playing much so maby some one will correct me on this.

[Sandwich]

Um im pritty sure this is wrong. Terrifying only effects living models. That is not the same as a wp duel. I have not been playing much so maby some one will correct me on this.

You are correct in that Terrifying is not a Wp duel.

On the flipside, nearly all duels caused by Pandora are Wp duels, not morale duels.

[marshimartian]

Um im pritty sure this is wrong. Terrifying only effects living models. That is not the same as a wp duel. I have not been playing much so maby some one will correct me on this.

Yes, this is wrong. Although Terrifying causes a morale duel, it is an ability that targets non-terrifying living models. So while the undead do lose their immunity to other morale duels, they are still unaffected by Terrifying.

[Gensuke626]

Huh...Interesting...I'll have to remember to tell that to our local Pandora players...

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Lady J should have no trouble against a scheme less Nico. Her whole crew is anti-undead. She has a spell that has a 12" pulse that does 3 dmg to all undead. resist wp which is easy to set too high. And since it is a spell armor does nothing. Along with executioner can wipe all the corpse counters. Also Lady J would be wasted going after nico, she can just kill minions and prevent corpse counters from being generated from her kills. Nico again is far from OP. He is tough. Death marshals don't create corpse counters when they die.

Pandora's thousand cuts and mere presence on the board is enough to weaken Nico, and basically force Nico to focus on Pandora with paralyze.

Sonia's aoe abilities will make it less worth bunch the zombies together, which is their threat.

With all this said it doesn't mean that Nico is weak against them. For example as Lady J playing against Nico, if I draw Treasure hunt I find it really hard to pull off. By turn 2 I'm usually surrounded by mindless zombies, forcing me to wade through a pile of undead to return to my home.

One thing I always have to think about with Nico is activation order, and that is why he is one of my favorite opponents. He always has more models than me and usually has a good 2 activations after me. Also I usually have to hold my control cards for triggers and df since he will have far more strike against me.

[Tograth]

Biggles, armour works as follows:

if you have armour, unless the attacking model has an ability which specifically ignores it, you always reduce damage you take by the amount of armour you have, down to a minimum of 1. this works on spells, melee, and ranged attacks. well, just about any type of damage tbh.

If an ability, spell, or attack does Wounds, distinct from damage, you cannot use armour to disregard it.

Magic doesnt mean you cut through armour, unless its a spell which secifically states that it does.

[Koali]

Mindless Zombies schould not be a problem for LJ...

Do Last rites an sacrifice them all... since they count als Corpse Counter aswell...

But Death Marshals do create Corpse counters...

Only when they punch something down with their Trigger in melee the target does not leave a counter...

It is the Last rites and the restore natural order Stuff, that makes LJ so damn good against Nico...

Edited January 29, 2011 by Koali

[Dynomime]

If it's summoning a ton of punk zombies than running up on the opponent with em heres what I do, shoot them once with a death marshal, trigger critical and do three damage, if there is another one in range than shoot him, don't shoot the same one twice.

The idea is to get as many undead models within three wounds of dying as possible, then just drop "restore natural order" with lady j and poof... nicodem is minus a horde.

Death marshals are great against him (or anyone), ryle is amazing against hordes, lady j just hates rezzers all around (and should have no trouble hitting) and what nicodem lacks a lot is the ability to ignore armour, so I would also recommend trying Peacekeeper, he is a monster tank with huge damage output and he is scary fast.

[TimeLapse]

Hi out there!

Ranged Combat is Useless:

Drawing LoS to my models is impossible (The Fog). If they get LoS, they often cannot cheat due to soft cover. Bolster Undead granting +2 Df making it impossible to hit.

In the few cases they actually hit, the damage is extremly reduced by Hard2Wound + Armor (Grave Spirit/Nurses)

Fog is not that powerful, It just gives you cover, It does not block line of sight so you can still charge though it.

It is just cover so models that have hunter can ingnore it.

The amout of guild models that have hunter makes fog almost useless.

VS neverborn lilith is so crazy fast that she will get to you before you get think about mindless zombies.

I dont know about the hag, or pandora since i never played Nico VS them.

Ramos is another book on toughness for nico to beat. Just thinking of the words "Arcing Screen" makes me cringe. Tina's overpower is awesome vs zombie hordes, since mindless cant cheat in DF flips she targets them and knocks almost all the mindless zombies out before Nico can replace them.

Markus, well he just sucks. There really is nother good to say about him so i wont.

We dont have alot of outcast palyers down here, so i dont really play vs them.

I could go on it all depends your opponets, Nico is good when its play undrstands him fully. Same with any master save markus, markus sucks... anyways I think that its just that your opponets have yet to fully understand how to play there master.

If your opponets are feeling that nico is too powerful let them play your list for a bit. I find when i play a list i think is over powered i see its weakness more clearly and better understand its ballance.

Anyways its MHO that Nico is not overpowered, If played right Nico is in the top teir of lists but its not the best, and its not overpowered.

-Andrew

[Thunder_God]

Check the errata, where "Blocking" was renamed as "Obscuring", and the V2 cards, where Fog is obscuring.

[Wodschow]

If an ability, spell, or attack does Wounds, distinct from damage, you cannot use armour to disregard it.

Magic doesnt mean you cut through armour, unless its a spell which secifically states that it does.

This is true, the spell in question deals Wd rather than Dg though. So while his reasoning was wrong, his conclusion was still correct.

[Geliron]

Your tactics seems to be based on destroying mindless zombies very fast. In fact, I rarely summon some. Reanimate is so much better. Summoning a Punk or a Flesh Construct 2 times a turn is more effective.

We play strategies and schemes, but I often destroy my enemies throught the 3th turn, so I just ignore them and crush my opponents.

Speed: Just some examples (with nurses, asuming all 3 drug effects):

nurse activates, casts on 1 zombie

mortimer activates, casts 2* "fresh Meat"

Zombie activates (companion), 2* Wk/CG:

Threathranges/Attacks:

Punk (21"+3 Attacks (Reactivate+Flurry), with paired, CB 13 and ++ DG!!!)

K9 (27"+2 attacks)

Flesh Construct (24"+2 Attacks + 1 at the closing Turn)

Is Liiith really faster? If she is, please explain it to me, so my opponents could learn.

[Koali]

nurse activates, casts on 1 zombie

So the Zombie would be dead after his Activation without leaving a Corpsecounter...

mortimer activates, casts 2* "fresh Meat"

For waht he needs a min. 7 of Masks... and the Opponent has to fail his resist. If you dont cast it on the oponent you have to move a own modell nearby the Opponent... Hmmm...

[Wodschow]

Speed: Just some examples (with nurses, asuming all 3 drug effects):

nurse activates, casts on 1 zombie

mortimer activates, casts 2* "fresh Meat"

Zombie activates (companion), 2* Wk/CG:

Threathranges/Attacks:

Punk (21"+3 Attacks (Reactivate+Flurry), with paired, CB 13 and ++ DG!!!)

K9 (27"+2 attacks)

Flesh Construct (24"+2 Attacks + 1 at the closing Turn)

I don't know-- What you're describing sounds a bit too idealistic to me. Here's my immediate thoughts in no particular order.

There's no point in using both Painkillers and Speed at the same time...

If you use Painkillers you'll be sacrificed after the first activation anyway, so the enemy just need to move vulnerable pieces out of sight (do you use enough (alot) of terrain?) - he should see it coming as soon as you've cast Painkillers so there's at least an activations or two for him to act in...

If you don't use Painkillers.. Then.. Well a Punk Zombie isn't exactly the toughest undead around. Several models are capable of dealing with them in a single activation (for instance all the four Masters your friends are playing should be able to do it easily).

The enemy could also just put a weaker minion in front of his others. If you kill it great he changed fewer SS for your Punk. If you don't kill it then you'll have to make disengagement strikes for attempting to pass by.

I'm not sure how you're keeping in range of Nicodems Bolstering aura if you run that far away.

To get your maximum range you also need to keep Mortimer in front of the rest of the crew as his Fresh Meat! range is 'only' 15".. I'm assuming you target your own models here as otherwise the opponent just have to resist the spell. I also find that 2x 7+ Masks don't always appear in my hand, but I might not be as lucky as you.

There's all sorts of spells and talents that could prevent this from working properly aswell.. Menace, Dispel Magic, Transposition, etc.