Lady J vs Guild

[Peoples Champ]

If you were to take on a typical Lady J list ie

30ss

Lady J

Judge

3 Death marshalls

2 Guild Guard

What would be the best guild list you could put together to beat it from what is available now?

I see Lady Js weakness being her defence from shooting so my obvious choice to start would be Perdita, Nino and a guild astringer. Not sure after that maybe stalkers as having hunter and being able to explode could do some damage.

[GuySmiley]

Criid

She has a few options. I would personally bury my models deep in cover. Make the most out of the scout and hunter abilities. LJ is really pretty quick when it gets down to it so use the terrain to really put the breaks on her. Look for a little bit of a defensive game. If your opponent isn’t biting on that then you can start to really build your hand so you can use confiscated lore to start arcing your fire off of marshal or guard and onto her other targets. The key to much of this match is trying to get ladyJ low on soulstone and then hitting her with sam when he has flaming bullets up. With that and rapid fire you should have a pretty good shot at killing Justice. Or at the least maiming her to the point it wont be hard to finish her off.

Perdita

LJ is fast so you might not want to count on being able to shoot her. If she double walks and with her reach you are looking at being outranged by most of your crew. Get nino up high somewhere so he has a good line of sight and start to build you a hand of trigger happy. Perdita’s high def isn’t going to be to scary if LJ burns a ram on her swordstyle flip so if you use a blocker you might want to make it papa to force the harder choice. The key here is going to be getting her into a position where you can companion a huge amount of your force and burn her down. If you get the chance with nino and trigger happy take it but I would use him more to clear out the judge or other stuff around her.

Least that would be my rough idea going into it without seeing any terrain, how they like to move or what strategy people are playing.

[TimeLapse]

30SS to take out lady J. Does models that are being released this month count? if so I would add Abuela Ortega but I am thinking that she does not count so this is my list without her,

Perdita,

Enslaved Nef totem 2

Nino 7

Papa Loco 6

Fransico 5

Witchling Stalker 4

Witchling Stalker 4

So that leaves 4ss On perdia

So the idea is this, when papa is on the table he will spread out, so you can take the stalkers, papa, totem and perdita down one flank and focus on there spread out models, make sure papa cant accidently blow up and kill your own stuff.

Try activating Papa, perdita and the totem at the same time, use obey twice on papa to charge at models, then activate him last, with his two actions blow up twice, this may end with a dead Lady J since here df is not that high, if not it will end with a lady J without some of her starting SS, a worse hand and some dead stuff around her. Dont do this unless you can hit more then 2 models. Surround Lady J and her army with you "if you kill me I will explode" models, with papa and the witchlings in range of each other they could end up killing 3 of your models but having 3 or more of these die as well.

You may also do the obey Nino thing to get him to take out stuff at range, though if he is on the table your opponent tends to hide behind stuff, making his models closer together making papa more useful.

But that is the list I would think of running at this level vs that list.

Hope this helps,

Andrew

[Jonas Albrecht]

Why does Lady Justice have such a low Defense?

I was studying up on Lilith the other day, preparing for a match, when I realized that she's very similar to Lady Justice. I would even argue that her spells are much more powerful than Lady J's. The only difference in their stat track is in their speed, and +2 wounds on LJ's side.

Lady Justice just doesn't seem to have any damage mitigation going for her. I would argue that since she plays so similarly, raising her Df is a must. Even if you attached it to Swordplay, and made it reliant on a Cast.

[Doctor Amos]

Why does Lady Justice have such a low Defense?

I was studying up on Lilith the other day, preparing for a match, when I realized that she's very similar to Lady Justice. I would even argue that her spells are much more powerful than Lady J's. The only difference in their stat track is in their speed, and +2 wounds on LJ's side.

Lady Justice just doesn't seem to have any damage mitigation going for her. I would argue that since she plays so similarly, raising her Df is a must. Even if you attached it to Swordplay, and made it reliant on a Cast.

You can't compare Lilith to Justice in a vaccum (well, you can, but I'm not going to). The big difference between the two of them is those tiny pieces of metal in J's hands; guns. Guild has them, Borne don't.

Lady J is fair, even good, at melee. The Guild, as a whole, are not, but they have guns. She gives them an edge they don't usually have. The Neverborne have to bend over backwords to get any kind of firepower short of hiring outside help, but thier melee fighters tend to be a little better.

[Jonas Albrecht]

You can't compare Lilith to Justice in a vaccum (well, you can, but I'm not going to). The big difference between the two of them is those tiny pieces of metal in J's hands; guns. Guild has them, Borne don't.

Lady J is fair, even good, at melee. The Guild, as a whole, are not, but they have guns. She gives them an edge they don't usually have. The Neverborne have to bend over backwords to get any kind of firepower short of hiring outside help, but thier melee fighters tend to be a little better.

True, but what I am looking at is a Master with absolutely no damage mitigation. Those guns, (rg-10, cb-4, dg2/3/5) while useful in giving Lady Justice some range, are not capable of keeping her alive. Not to mention that few LJ players will keep her out of melee to use them. Because once she's in melee, she's an absolute monster.

[Wodschow]

True, but what I am looking at is a Master with absolutely no damage mitigation. Those guns, (rg-10, cb-4, dg2/3/5) while useful in giving Lady Justice some range, are not capable of keeping her alive. Not to mention that few LJ players will keep her out of melee to use them. Because once she's in melee, she's an absolute monster.

I'm fairly certain that he meant the guns in general available to the Guild and not Justice's in particular.

Also.. I think you're not realizing the potential of Sword Style here..

Justice's triggers are also far more impressive than Liliths.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I think I may have misrepresented my query.

I don't think Lady J lacks in the damage department.

I think her Defense is low, and as a Master, could use some kind of Damage mitigation.

[Alondir]

riposte + critical strikes everywhere. she can aoe corpse counters,

and tbh she isn't just fair at melee i would fear her with anything, in melee combat

The fact that she can 1 shot a lot of models she has a max of 9 damage (not inc redjoker) and she can do this when your attacking her O.o

its not her job be the same as lilith,

besides if she had silly defence aka 8 then no one would ever aproch her in melee ever ever

+ have u seen her new artwork damn that would be enough to buy the crew even if she were shocking.

i ramble but in essence she is a very good master, and shouldn't be tossed aside just because she doesn't have silly high def.

[Jonas Albrecht]

i ramble but in essence she is a very good master, and shouldn't be tossed aside just because she doesn't have silly high def.

I really think this board needs hyperbole police.

A query as to why she seems to have low defense and no damage mitigation is not tossing her aside. It's a question. One that I was hoping that could be answered by the board, with something better than "keep her hidden until she charges".

And no, I have not seen the new artwork. Do tell.

[M_Ruckuss]

Why does Lady Justice have such a low Defense?

I was studying up on Lilith the other day, preparing for a match, when I realized that she's very similar to Lady Justice. I would even argue that her spells are much more powerful than Lady J's. The only difference in their stat track is in their speed, and +2 wounds on LJ's side.

Lady Justice just doesn't seem to have any damage mitigation going for her. I would argue that since she plays so similarly, raising her Df is a must. Even if you attached it to Swordplay, and made it reliant on a Cast.

( I regulalry use a Lilith crew) Im no expert, but I have always loved Lady J.

Sword style is a great skill Lilith doesnt really seem to have an obvious counterpart to

Restore natural order, while an all action, is amazing against LJ's most obvious opponent (as do a couple of her other abilities.

Like McMourning, she has ways of stringing together alot of attacks if she gets a mask (onslaught I believe?

There may also be certain situations (say v McMournings dissect attack or) where those extra 2 wounds could well be the difference over Lilith....

My understanding is that each of the current 4 guild masters has a specific purpose:

Criid-anti magic

LJ- anti resse

Perdita- anti neverborn

Hoffman- anti construct

I have never played guild so I may be wrong, but isnt each master (thematically) supposed to be good at hunting a particular enemy in Malifaux? So maybe she is designed as a less all-rounder than lilith who excells in some areas?

Her defence may be low, but she had to be weak somewhere (i mean, I cant find any other rules which seem to take into account she is blind and in some ways vulnerable!!!!)

Couldnt she use melee expert to have 2 attacks, go defensive, companion scales who uses tip the balance and gain ++ to her combat total and (if its come up) use a mask to riposte and smack your enemy?

They are very different characters for very different roles, but I can also see what you mean: Lilith has a DF of 3 more, and opponents can lose CB point if they miss, while McMourning, for instance, can regen and has a high soulstone cache.

Edited November 30, 2010 by McDoogle

[Jonas Albrecht]

Her defence may be low, but she had to be weak somewhere (i mean, I cant find any other rules which seem to take into account she is blind and in some ways vulnerable!!!!)

They are very different characters for very different roles, but I can also see what you mean: Lilith has a DF of 3 more, and opponents can lose CB point if they miss, while McMourning, for instance, can regen and has a high soulstone cache.

It doesn't even have to be high Defense. Malifaux masters have awesome ways to stay alive. Look at Nicodem: 12 wd, Hard to Wound, Zombie Fodder, and The Fog.

[M_Ruckuss]

It doesn't even have to be high Defense. Malifaux masters have awesome ways to stay alive. Look at Nicodem: 12 wd, Hard to Wound, Zombie Fodder, and The Fog.

Its a fair point i guess - I edited my lasy post as I may have found a one-use-trick to help (not reallt that helpful bu hey, im trying!). Yeah she could bee DF 6 I guess, but she does have the extra wounds, is much harder than any of her human counterparts in terms of her stats (excluding perdita, but thats another story) and is, I would argue, a character who is best used against Resses. If your playing the game to the letter of the book, and choose your faction before strategies, you will know what faction your opponent is taking. So even if you are just using the original 3 masters, this might potentially give you an edge. I still think this is the way they were designed to worl, in line with the fluff:

"aha, a witch to burn, get criid" or "it just wont stay down, get the busty red head..."

The other thing to consider it that guild players have access to magic, combat and shooing. The most effective ranges weapon, nay the only one a model with the word "nephilim" in its title is my 1/1/2 cheurb bow, and my offensive magic isnt great either- try Lady J with Nino and/or Ryle-out-shoot anything that is shooting at you, deliever Lady J, Judge and a marhsal into combat-BOOM!

(again, only an idea, I'm not a guild player but that idea scares me...!)

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, you can always switch your masters out, but I don't really enjoy sideboarding.

And besides, if Lady Justice can fall to the efforts of a few Zombie Punks, she's arguably not able to do her job better than Perdita.

But lets change tact. When you play her, against both Ressers and non Ressers, how do you handle her?

Edited November 30, 2010 by Jonas Albrecht

[M_Ruckuss]

Yeah, you can always switch your masters out, but I don't really enjoy sideboarding.

And besides, if Lady Justice can fall to the efforts of a few Zombie Punks, she's arguably not able to do her job better than Perdita.

i dont either, i always take 1 master to a gaming evening.

Perhaps, as I said I may be wrong, I just think there are a lot of cool things about her. Besides which, I dont think Perdita would EVER let use put a blind fold on her-LJ comes with one standard;) It comes down to taste I guess- you could always desert and join the ranks of the Neverborn...!!!lol

[Jonas Albrecht]

Neverborn are for shooting, not for playing.

I'll be an Ortega long after they've been cuddled to unplayability.

[M_Ruckuss]

Neverborn are for shooting, not for playing.

I'll be an Ortega long after they've been cuddled to unplayability.

Lol fair enough my friend. I think I prefer the La Croix, what with gremilns being a type of neverborn too (at least I believe) although Perdita is much hotter than Ophelia (unless one likes them mean, keen and green!)

Try Ryle with them-hed be the first thing Id pick if I did any guild crew. He'll soon send enemy shooters running for cover. Could also include a itchling so she isnt so vulnerable to magic?

Hope something in my posts has at least helped LJ's cause Jonas!!!!

[Jonas Albrecht]

Lol fair enough my friend. I think I prefer the La Croix, what with gremilns being a type of neverborn too (at least I believe) although Perdita is much hotter than Ophelia (unless one likes them mean, keen and green!)

Try Ryle with them-hed be the first thing Id pick if I did any guild crew. He'll soon send enemy shooters running for cover. Could also include a itchling so she isnt so vulnerable to magic?

Hope something in my posts has at least helped LJ's cause Jonas!!!!

I might just have to take the plunge. I'm eyeing her for my next crew, and hope she plays well enough. I'm a huge fan of the Death Marshals.

[M_Ruckuss]

I might just have to take the plunge. I'm eyeing her for my next crew, and hope she plays well enough. I'm a huge fan of the Death Marshals.

I would if I were you, for the models alone. I'd be interested to see how you find her, as I have always fancied doing a crew (although I suspect mine will be my first "Hybrid" crew. ALso, why not try desp mercs for healing flips...??? noy ideal but hey!

[Jonas Albrecht]

I would if I were you, for the models alone. I'd be interested to see how you find her, as I have always fancied doing a crew (although I suspect mine will be my first "Hybrid" crew. ALso, why not try desp mercs for healing flips...??? noy ideal but hey!

I can't help but feel like you agree with my point about Lady Justice's survivability.

[Peoples Champ]

Played a standard Lady J list in a 30ss tournament last week

Lady J

Judge

3 Death marshalls

2 guild guard

My list was:

Perdita

judge

Sammuel

Guild astringer

Nino

Governors proxy

Strategy was shared 'get the stuff' my shemes were assasinate (played on lady J) and 'the terrain grabbing one which I cannot remember the name of' while he had bodyguard and hold out. I won 6-4 as I got the stuff quicker and rushed perdita foward 18" in the last tuun to get into his deployment zone. My firepower kept Lady J and friends at bay to enable me to win the game so seemed a good foil to her. Using Perdta and obey with Nino was good. If I had had peridtas totem I would have used that as it would have allowed me to cast obey alot more as it came with a mask.

[nilus]

The reason for LJs low defense is her trigger. Riposte is very powerful and if she had a higher defense you would be able

to get it off more often. Which would make

her unbalanced IMHO

As far as surviveability goes. She stays alive with soul stones. Which is why she has a high cache.

[Jonas Albrecht]

The reason for LJs low defense is her trigger. Riposte is very powerful and if she had a higher defense you would be able

to get it off more often. Which would make

her unbalanced IMHO

As far as surviveability goes. She stays alive with soul stones. Which is why she has a high cache.

Perdita has the inverse of Riposte, and has the same requirements and a bell ringer Df.

Many Masters have Cache 4 and up, and they still have protection. Pandora, Lilith, Criid, Marcus, C. Hoffman, Colette technically...

I promise, this is not me being argumentative for the sake of argument.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Jonas Albrecht

[tadaka]

Well for perdita at least I think the range attack factors in here. Use them or not every model in the game has a melee attack. Not all models have a range attack in fact a lot dont. This makes hers more limited but in some cases better depending on who you are fighting. Perdita is a bad example any way in my opinion as she is about as high on the durability scale as any one up there with he who shall not be named in the spirit of avoiding more flames . I actualy find Lady j to be about perfect as far as balance goes. Then again I dont use a lot of corpse counters so others may disagree

[Jonas Albrecht]

Well for perdita at least I think the range attack factors in here. Use them or not every model in the game has a melee attack. Not all models have a range attack in fact a lot dont. This makes hers more limited but in some cases better depending on who you are fighting. Perdita is a bad example any way in my opinion as she is about as high on the durability scale as any one up there with he who shall not be named in the spirit of avoiding more flames . I actualy find Lady j to be about perfect as far as balance goes. Then again I dont use a lot of corpse counters so others may disagree

Perdita has Quickdraw. Its a counter to ranged strikes, casts, channels, and charges.

But curiously, why do you feel Lady J to be perfect as far as balance goes?