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Gah, its so frusterating!


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I fully understand the concept of linking companion in order to activate multiple units before your opponent can go.

Let me give whoever so chooses to be a wise pervayer of knowledge an exact rundown of what my dilemma is.

I currently run my 35SS games with

Seamus

Sybelle

Bete Noir

Rotten Belle - x4

Copycat

I've been attempting to

Activate Seamus

(0) action Womanizer - Sybelle

Which should in turn

Activate all four of my Belles, correct?

I have tried to explain that

Because Seamus is recieving Companion (Sybelle)

And his Belle's have, Companion (Sybelle)

They too will activate after Seamus and Sybelle,

But he refutes this and refuses to allow it.

And so I've been proxying that by Activating a Belle and then companioning her with Sybelle.

Which is generally detrimental to my plans.

I have searched these forums and they provide no undeniable proof as to the legality of this action; though I know that it can legally be done within the parameters of the rules.

Please, someone with greater knowledge than I, explain this to me in a way that I may explain it to my opponent.

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Companion kicks in as soon as the model in the companion: x is fullfilled. Since rotten belles have companion: Sybelle they can use that as soon as she activates. The rules for simultaneous activations specifically states that you can have 2 or more models all activate I don't know why your opponent won't believe it. You can also do the same thing with Sebastian and the canine remains. Once he gives it to one remains, the rest of the remains can get it and all activate.

What is he saying in regards that you can't do it? What's his reasoning? That would be helpful.

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I'll agree with what Emissary said, and in addition: Are there other people you can play with? If this person isn't able (or willing?) to allow you to follow the rules, then find someone else to go against. If enough other people there realize that $person is a jerk to play against and refuse to play him, he'll either go home, find another group to game with, or get better.

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Companion

Replace description with “When activating this model, if it is

within 6” of (model), this model and any number of other

friendly (model) within 6” may receive Simultaneous

Activation. Complete this model’s activation before continuing

to the other model(s’) activation(s). A model may receive

Companion (model) during the course of another model’s

activation. In this case the model receiving Companion

(model) activates immediately following the end of the other

(model’s) activation as per Simultaneous Activation.”

I don't think I need to say anything else - your opponent is wrong, smack him with this part of the errata. Sybelle is activating, and as a result has a window in which to pick companions.

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I suppose I should've included his arguement, sorry.

I showed him that part of the errata

And he states that the only way it would work would be by activating my Belle's first.

And

Here.

The way he rebuked it with me is,

Replace description with “When activating this model(Sybelle), if it is

within 6” of (Sybelle), this model and any number of other

friendly (Sybelle) within 6” may receive Simultaneous

Activation. Complete this model’s activation before continuing

to the other model(s’) activation(s). A model may receive

Companion (model) during the course of another model’s

activation. In this case the model receiving Companion

(model) activates immediately following the end of the other

(model’s) activation as per Simultaneous Activation

Yadayada.

He's basically trying to say that because Seamus does it, nothing happens.

And Sybelle's card, at least mine, doesn't explicitly say Companion(Belle/Sybelle)

And so he states that Seamus has no way of activating them all together as none of them, including Sybelle, have Companion (Seamus) and that is the Companionship that Sybelle is recieving. :/

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companion: Sybelle is on the rotten belle's cards not on Sybelle's card.

Also, Seamus doens't activate the rotten belles. He just activates Sybelle. However, when Sybelle activates it (can) trigger the companion: Sybelle on the rotten belles because Sybelle is activating not because Seamus is activating. It's a chain. A (Seamus) to B (Sybelle) to C (Rotten Belle), not A to C directly.

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Ya seamus companions a (belle) which sybelle is. Its printed on the top of her card. Just because she doesn't blatantly say belle in her name (which if you get rid of sy, you have belle. Lol) seamus companions sybelle and when she activates as long as all the other belles are within 6", they can activate companion off of sybelle. They can all activate. Just explain it. If he still doesn't allow, you may have to find a different person to play.

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From Book2:

Companion (model):

If this model and the companion (model) are within 6" of one another at the start of either model's activation, both models may activate simultaneously. Complete the acting model's activation first.

Now I have no idea why anyone would object against this. Seamus must activate first, giving one of his Belles companion, but then all the Belles can activate simultaneously thereafter in any order you wish for them to activate in, as long as each of them is within 6" of at least one other model (ie. you could chain them even).

Edit:

You don't even have to have Sybelle as the 2nd model in the activation order. She could go last or whenever, you decide the order!

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EDIT: What Wodschow said. That's what I was looking for! I knew I'd read it somewhere.:dancing2:

It's on page 254 of Rising Powers.

If this Belle and the companion (Sybelle) are within 6" of one another at the start of either model's activation, both models may activate simultaneously. Complete the acting model's activation first.

Taking Seamus out of the equation, looking just at the Belles and Sybelle, you can companion them all assuming they are all within 6". Your Belles have companion (Sybelle) and Sybelle is Sybelle. You can activate them in any order, you just have to announce it prior to activating the first in the chain.

Add Seamus back into the mix and it's the same deal. If this Seamus and companion (Belle) are within 6" ... it's just an extra link in the chain. Seamus would need to go first to take part, 'cause he needs a (0) action to companion. However, the order you choose to activate beyond that is no longer important, only that they're all within range and meet the criteria for companionship.

Pardon the ninja edit.

If your opponent thinks this is over the top, tell him to take a look at the Ortegas and their companion (Family). Yikes.

Edited by Hatchethead
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From Book2:

Companion (model):

If this model and the companion (model) are within 6" of one another at the start of either model's activation, both models may activate simultaneously. Complete the acting model's activation first.

Now I have no idea why anyone would object against this. Seamus must activate first, giving one of his Belles companion, but then all the Belles can activate simultaneously thereafter in any order you wish for them to activate in, as long as each of them is within 6" of at least one other model (ie. you could chain them even).

Edit:

You don't even have to have Sybelle as the 2nd model in the activation order. She could go last or whenever, you decide the order!

Well, Seamus must give Sybelle Companion, not one of the rotting belles, since the rotting belles do not companion to Seamus or other rotting belles.

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Well, Seamus must give Sybelle Companion, not one of the rotting belles, since the rotting belles do not companion to Seamus or other rotting belles.

Hmm. You might be right, on second thought. Seamus companions a Belle within 6". Does this then allow Seamus' companion to bring Sybelle along for the ride (assuming she's within 6")? Can Sybelle then bring all Belles within 6" of her? Can you chain it? Or is it a single, contained event? It would seem that allowing companionship to be chained would be easily exploitable, with the 6" range jumping from Seamus to Belle to Sybelle across a potential 18".

I mean, I've done it. I've activated Mortimer who then activates a Canine Remains who then activates another Canine Remains, etc. but Man's Best Friend specifically mentions "when this model receives Companion, another friendly Canine Remains within 6" may receive Companion as well." It's meant to be chained together.

I need to pontificate. :thinking:

According to the new wording on page 254 of Rising Powers, Womanizer is tad broken, is it not? Seamus uses his (0) action to grant a Belle Companion (Seamus). By virtue of using the (0) action, it is no longer the start of his activation and therefore the lucky Belle cannot take advantage. Sure, she'll still be his companion when her activation comes around, but it's not as if he can re-activate. The effect of Womanizer is then lost during the closing phase.

It's obvious what the intention is, but the wording still leaves room for nonsense. I could be wrong. Hope so.

This doesn't change the fact that when Sybelle activates, all friendly Belles within 6" are allowed to activate simultaneously.

I think I'm getting hung up on the fact that you previously had to announce an entire chain of simultaneous activations prior to activating the first model. Is this no longer the case? Page 254 does not mention it.

Edited by Hatchethead
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According to the new wording on page 254 of Rising Powers, Womanizer is tad broken, is it not? Seamus uses his (0) action to grant a Belle Companion (Seamus). By virtue of using the (0) action, it is no longer the start of his activation and therefore the lucky Belle cannot take advantage. Sure, she'll still be his companion when her activation comes around, but it's not as if he can re-activate. The effect of Womanizer is then lost during the closing phase.

It's obvious what the intention is, but the wording still leaves room for nonsense.

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Well, Seamus must give Sybelle Companion, not one of the rotting belles, since the rotting belles do not companion to Seamus or other rotting belles.

I disagree on this..

I realize now that I did make a mistake before though. I failed to point out that all Belles must be within 6" of Sybelle.

However.. As long as this condition is met, you can Womanize any of them and they can act simultaneously in any order you want them to.

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(0) companion abilities aren't broken. The issue has been clarified in the rules forum. Here's a good breakdown http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14024

As for Sybelle, she doesn't have any type of companion without Seamus using his ability. When Sybelle activates, any rotten belles within 6" of her can kick in their natural companion: Sybelle abilities. Hence, the order is pretty much Seamus going first and giving a Sybelle within 6" companion: Seamus then completes his activation. After that any rotten belles within 6" of Sybelle can activate due to her activating, and since they have the companion ability naturally, any or all of them can go before Sybelle has her activation.

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EDIT: Nevermind! Keltheos obliterated my interpretation in the thread emissary linked, above. That said, I still find the wording a tad suspect.

You'd use his (0) Action, finish his activation, then you could use Companion to activate the Belle and Sybelle and resolve their activations in whatever order you choose.

I'll leave the original post in place (below), if only to illustrate the error of my ways. Behold, my fail!

However.. As long as this condition is met, you can Womanize any of them and they can act simultaneously in any order you want them to.

I'm beginning to think not.

I'm still not certain about the wording of Womanizer, but let's ignore that.

Seamus uses Womanizer on a Belle within 6". He then spends his remaining AP and finishes his activation as the active model. Assuming the wording of Womanizer isn't an issue and the intention of the action is clear ...

Seamus' new companion becomes the active model, it's her turn to activate. If Sybelle is within 6" of the Belle, she will get to go next, but the Belle remains the active model and must complete her activation first. This is how I interpret, "Complete the active model's activation first."

I think the bit about "at the start of either models activation" is simply meant to open up a two way street. It is not meant to give the player free reign over the order of the activations (I think).

For instance, Belles have Companion (Sybelle) but Sybelle does not have Companion (Belle). Still, if Sybelle activates near a Belle, the new wording allows the Belle to activate simultaneously despite Sybelle not having a specific Companion (Model) ability. BUT, Sybelle must first spend her AP as the active model prior to the Belle lurching into action. She's the active model and must complete her activation, according to 254.

... to continue with our example above, Seamus' companion spends her AP and it's Sybelle's turn to activate. This then allows any remaining Belles within 6" of Sybelle to activate following the completion of Sybelles activation as the active model.

I think.

:twitch:

Edited by Hatchethead
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... Hence, the order is pretty much Seamus going first and giving a Sybelle within 6" companion: Seamus then completes his activation. After that any rotten belles within 6" of Sybelle can activate due to her activating, and since they have the companion ability naturally, any or all of them can go before Sybelle has her activation.

Or you could go like this:

Seamus activates and uses (0)Womanizer on Rotten BelleA within 6" of Sybelle and finishes his activation.

Rotten BelleA is about to activate after Seamus' activation.

Rotten BelleA uses it's Companion(Sybelle) on Sybelle.

Rotten BelleA and Sybelle are now about to activate simultaneously.

Rotten BelleB uses it's Companion(Sybelle) on Sybelle.

Rotten BelleA, Rotten BelleB and Sybelle are now about to activate simultaneously.

Rotten BelleC uses it's Companion(Sybelle) on Sybelle.

etc.

All the Belles activate simultaneously and you decide the order in which they make their activations within the simultaneous activation.

Doesn't matter which Belle you Womanize in the beginning.

Edit:

Actually this is somewhat related to another question I asked:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14776

There hasn't been any answer in that thread yet though.

Edited by Wodschow
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Seamus companions Belle. He completes his activation.

Sybelle is within 6" of Seamus' new companion. Since the Belle has Campanion (Sybelle), you can choose to activate either model according to page 254 of Rising Powers.

A second Belle is also within 6" of Sybelle. She is thus added to the simultaneous activation queue. It is then up to the player to decide which of the three models take part and the order of activation.

... apparently, this is how it works?

Edited by Hatchethead
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Seamus companions Belle. He completes his activation.

Sybelle is within 6" of Seamus' new companion. Since the Belle has Campanion (Sybelle), you can choose to activate either model according to page 254 of Rising Powers.

A second Belle is also within 6" of Sybelle. She is thus added to the simultaneous activation queue. It is then up to the player to decide which of the three models take part and the order of activation.

... apparently, this is how it works?

That's correct. It is how it works.

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