Oops. found an infinite loop ^^ (Lilitu)

[karn987]

Its rather untested and a weird fluke. Wyrd is good about plugging anything trully broken.

This is on the line. It seem infinite on paper, but really you can't keep winning your casts. On the other hand it seems clear that lure might need a simple fix to state you can't lure a target when its already in your melee range or even when in base contact would fix this combo up nice. So we shall have to wait and see what happens.

Most likely what will happen, is the trigger will be changed to require the model to fail the resist duel on the spell to be subject to a second casting of this spell.

The original intention when we designed and tested it was that you had to fail the resist duel. So I think it's again something that was not caught in the final edit and misworded. So just wait for the card to come out or the next errata to hit, this should hopefully be on it.

[karn987]

Ok so I am a prospect player. Got the first core book and read it last night. So very unfamiliar with combos and such.

I just wanted to know if this is a game where combos like this are really going to ruin the game.

I love tournament play and would really like this to be a solid game with really cool and fun interactions with all the models in most games.

I guess I am just asking if this type of brokenness is typical for this game or is this a fluke or a drop in play testing?

If i get into this game it will be my wife, my step-daughter and I all at the same time so I would like to know that I am making a sound investment.

Showing up to a tournament that has 7 of the same combo list with a total of 11 players would make me sad.

No. This is not a game dominated by a few unbeatable combos. There are many powerful combos in the game, but there are no unstoppable ones.

This is a fluke in wording from the design/test to the final product. Something got miss-worded and Im 90% sure we will see a change to fix this.

Don't worry, this is a very good game to get into. There is a lot of hard work put into to keeping the game balanced and fun for everyone and Wyrd is really responsive to player feedback and questions. They take good care of their players in almost every sense.

[Omadon]

mm, this isn't nearly as rediculous if it the trigger gets fixed - the line between it being disgustingly OP and just damn nasty is that you only need a four, and they need quite a bit to resist every time, and with casting expert the Lilitu has three chances to screw up. Testing it downstairs against a problem matchup - Hoffman. Panda needs to be everywhere to deal with immune to influence, and hoffman himself is immune to project emotions, so - we shall see how it does.

Need to test it on Sonnia at some point. Whole thing kindof falls apart against her - she can force a resist on one through and then reflect it, dragging the lilitu out of Nekama's aura ^^

[nilus]

Showing up to a tournament that has 7 of the same combo list with a total of 11 players would make me sad.

Has not happened yet. At least in my area.

Official Malifaux tourney rules don't make people play set lists, you draft your crew every round based on your stategy. So lists are much more fluid and specialized to the task at hand.

That being said I can't think of one end all killer combo. There have been 5 or so tourneys in Chicago and we have had a good mix of factions and masters throughout.

[Omadon]

Played two games with this last night - one against hoffman and another against Zoradia. In one turn, with one Lilitu, Ryle and a Mechanical Rider just plain died. Hoffman would have too (Possibly from the same Lilitu) if my brother hadn't missread Dampening Field ^^ He detonated the remains of his two constructs afterwards killing the Lilitu, but by that point, Panda had gone to work, and left him wide open to the Nekama stood directly next to him.

Zoradia was a bit more complicated - nearly killed Nekama with my own trick, casting obey on the Lilitu, but he needed the actual melee hits to kill her, as Panda's aura is enemy only. He took a fair chunk out of her, but the lilitu healed her up - I'd hidden in a building and made myself a Lelu second turn so their healing was free to be directed at everything. Everything that came into LoS died from there on, and he folded out of hopelessness, as he had claim jump, and I could see the claim marker

Soo. Impending cuddle? Or working as intended?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I love playing stuff on an open table, with no terrain and an opponent with a hand full of deuces and aces while mine is nothing but 11's and 12's.

Seriously though, combos are tough to beat sometimes but that's the thing. They can be beaten.

[Omadon]

I love playing stuff on an open table, with no terrain and an opponent with a hand full of deuces and aces while mine is nothing but 11's and 12's.

Seriously though, combos are tough to beat sometimes but that's the thing. They can be beaten.

Nice logic, and while mostly I agree with you. I feel that nothing, in any game, should ever be allowed to basically go infinite. If the trigger gets a cuddle, then it's a good combo. If it doesn't - then alls you need is a string of fours to kill a master. This has the same killing power as all the Panda-Woosh stuff, just slightly less range (and with cooler models.. and more flexibility, and irresistable across the board and... did I mention cooler models?)

So, if you aren't going to cuddle them, could you at least.. maybe release the models soon? Tournament coming up in november! ^_~

[Matamane]

It's not broken.

A 27 point commitment is at least double the point cost any other workable combo in the game. You get what you pay for, and it is fair for it to be equally as powerful.

[Iamwyrd]

There is no need to cuddle it. Yes you need only a four to get it off. But it still has a resist. You get it off with the four, so 12 is the TN. A master lets use kirai flips to stop it, she flips a 7 so her total is 12 all she has to do is soulstones to add and she resists it. The only thing its really good against in low wp minions. Master have plenty potential to stop it. And if its that bad just stay away from her or hide behind something to block Los. Its a good combo but not infinite. IMO. What's stupid is her 4" melee range. Now that with lure is gross. And the fact that she has wicked. So she is a 4" aura of no escape essentially.

[Wodschow]

That's the thing however as Omadon pointed out.

Even if the spell is resisted it is still successfully cast - so will trigger anohter cast, which again just needs a 4.

How long can you keep up with a Ca8 model that wins on draws?

The trigger does need some Cuddling, but I believe it is sufficient to let it trigger on failed resists rather than successful casts.

Edit: Unless 'completely resolve' on the trigger means that the spell must not be resisted. Not a native speaker, but I think that a resisted spell is still resolved - just that nothing happens.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Wodschow

[kbdrand]

In my opinion (just my personal opinion) if a spell is resisted then it is not successfully cast. Sure you got the spell off, but if it is resisted then it was not successful but rather it failed to affect the target, therefore the spell as a whole failed.

Until I hear an official ruling, that is the way we play it in our gaming group. So yes, it is a good combo, but not endless since all you have to do is resist it.

[Wodschow]

Page 63 - Casting Spells:

"... If the spell does require a resistance Duel, once your model successfully casts the spell, any affected models must perform a resistance Duel against your casting total to resist its effects."

This indicates that even resisted spells are successfully cast. Successfully casting merely means winning the Ca->CC duel.

[kbdrand]

I understand, but until we have an errata on this I have to go with the interpretation that doesn't hold up the game. Constantly being able to recast the spell even in the face of a resist to me is just broken.

[Iamwyrd]

I doubt their gonna erratta it any time soon. It is a 27 point sinc that you have to bring to do it. So people are just gonna have to revert back to 25 point games to get away from it. Lol

[karn987]

I doubt their gonna erratta it any time soon. It is a 27 point sinc that you have to bring to do it. So people are just gonna have to revert back to 25 point games to get away from it. Lol

Or just ask people not to play the combo if you think it is abusive. I've never had an issue with any players playing abusive lists over and over again.

If this bugs you, house rule the trigger back to what I said it originally was. That it only triggers if the model fails the resist. Hopefully it gets a fix because it does need one for a variety of reasons.

[Iamwyrd]

Or just ask people not to play the combo if you think it is abusive. I've never had an issue with any players playing abusive lists over and over again.

If this bugs you, house rule the trigger back to what I said it originally was. That it only triggers if the model fails the resist. Hopefully it gets a fix because it does need one for a variety of reasons.

That's how we play at our lgs. If you resist the spell it technically wasn't successfully cast. For trigger purposes.

[Omadon]

On a side note, it's not a 27 point combo, it's a 20 point combo, the extra 7 points is just another lilitu. It's worse in smaller games. Their one heavy model just flat dies, and the rest is left to deal with Nekama.

Also - in that case, the way you play it at your store isn't true to the actual rules. They clearly state this. Soo, that doesn't even fit into a debate about the rules of the game. There are plenty of above-the-law ways to deal with this, but, what does that achieve beyond your LGS?

[karn987]

Well there is very little point to arguing about it here any more. We can't make the rules change, but we can influence how we play at our LGS (which is the heart of where you play the game). The marshal's are the ones responsible for that and they seem resistant to making a change on this one.

If you think it should be changed, try sending them a well written and logical PM asking them to consider it. But RAW has been established that this works. I don't think the trigger is as we intended when it was in test and design, but it is what it is and there isn't much we can do about it. So try to learn to play around it and get people not to use it. If your worried about Tourney play, just ask them to play it with the alternate trigger. If its some big hardcore tourney.... well its a hardcore tourney, there are going to be worse things in that I think.

Edited September 10, 2010 by karn987

[Hatchethead]

On paper it looks somewhat hideous. It's a 20ss combo, so it's hard to condemn it ... though in a 35ss game? I dunno. I'd have to run up against it a few times on a table packed with terrain before I could make a determination. At face value, I'm not thrilled with a Ca trigger that ignores the resist flip and potentially allows a string of free melee attacks. That said, I'm not entirely convinced this requires cuddleJUSTICE. I'll admit, it looks scary in print, and Omadon's playtest results don't inspire optimism.

As has been mentioned, at least it's a simple fix.

Double Take [Lure]: After target model fails to resist Lure, completely resolve the spell, then cast Lure again.

[Matamane]

Nekima makes this fail on a 1 or a Black Joker.

It doesn't have to be made to only work on success, give Lure the ranged icon, and problem solved

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It doesn't have to be made to only work on success, give Lure the ranged icon, and problem solved

Sorry, but that's not happening.

[Hatchethead]

Sorry, but that's not happening.

Thank God (and Sketch).

[Matamane]

I dont even think a fix is needed, but if you were to change something, I think that would be what to change while preserving the intent.

[Hatchethead]

I'd prefer they tweak Double Take rather than fundamentally alter Lure, assuming there's need for change. I'm not sure there is. Won't know until I play it.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Hatchethead

[Wodschow]

I definetly think it should be changed to failed resists only.. For obvious reasons really.. But I said this already, just posting to comment on a few things:

Nekima makes this fail on a 1 or a Black Joker.

Incorrect. You still need a 4+. The enemy gets lower Wp from being close to Nekima (which is what I assume you're refering to) so will have a harder time to resist, but that doesn't affect your own casting at all.

Well there is very little point to arguing about it here any more. We can't make the rules change, but we can influence how we play at our LGS (which is the heart of where you play the game). The marshal's are the ones responsible for that and they seem resistant to making a change on this one.

...

Sorry Karn, but I find this somewhat amusing considering the now many pages long thread about Sorrows and their link.