Oops. found an infinite loop ^^ (Lilitu)

[Omadon]

Just a thought - what happens when you use Nekama's (0) Nephilim Heart to give her +masks on cast. Double Take goes infinite, and even if you miss them with melee, as soon as somethings been marked by a project emotions from pandora, it gets dragged into Nekama's -2Wp aura and is on a minus flip for defence. Emotional Trauma will do the rest D:

Not quite sure how to fix this. Maybe make Neverborn Heart expire after their next action? Perhaps successful Strikes/Casts, so that you don't lose the buff after trying to grow once. Unless it's the Df one. The wording will be slightly cumbersome, but something has to be done.

But not before I win some games with the succubus brigade

[wrabbit37]

Not quite infinite - it will run out because not every card in the deck will succeed at casting the spell. Still, it's a lot of casting over and over again.

[kbdrand]

Also, once the target is in melee you really should not get to perform another lure (just my opinion, not in the rules) due to the ability to make a melee strike each time.

[Sliver Chocobo]

can you cast lure in combat?

[kbdrand]

It does not have a ranged icon, so yes.

[nilus]

Not infinite. You still need to cast the spell. Try it out in practice(not just theoryfauxing it) and you will see its not as reliable as it initially looks.

[karn987]

Yeah, when you actually play her, you realize quickly its not nearly as infinite as it looks ;D

[nerdelemental]

Fixed!

[karn987]

Fixed!

>.> whats fixed?

[nerdelemental]

The problem.

"There isn't any."

Love it! Fixed! (this is a Nathan joke when it got to be crunch time on Book II, he looked for the quickest solution. Got to be an inside joke.)

[Wodschow]

Well even if it runs out eventually it's still the chainable attack that have the highest chance of running for a long time (80% of the deck allows you to cast it again whereas other similar abilities have less than 25% of the deck or so). I consider it a potent combo, even if your opponent will just resist it at some point.

The real problem probably lies in the price tag on having both Nekima and Lilitu (and thus also Lelu or things doesn't make sense).. 27 SS is alot.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Wodschow

[ProdigalPunk]

This was brought up awhile ago in the rules forum, and it was deemed Working as Intended. It is a bit of a beast considering she can cast 3 times, but people seem to be fine with it.

[Omadon]

Right, okay, what happens when it's preceeded by a project emotions on defensive flips? She's effectivley Ca10 (Nekama's -Wp aura). Seriously. How can this possibly be working as intended? She needs a four for a free hit, and adverage joe dude has what.. 5Wp? 6Wp? Even if she rolls out all fours, they need a pair of nines/tens to dodge the spell? And then they get a minus on their Df flip for her melee attack, and - that in mind, with pandora there, she doesn't even need to hit them. A string of fours will kill somebody. And you can take two of them! And it's range 18"! And, you can give them flight to reposition them with impunity. Not to mention that this list has, in addition to all of this, Nekama stood there, not only enabling the instant annihilation of any model that the Lilitu can see, but also Being Bloody Nekama. O_o

[karn987]

Right, okay, what happens when it's preceeded by a project emotions on defensive flips? She's effectivley Ca10 (Nekama's -Wp aura). Seriously. How can this possibly be working as intended? She needs a four for a free hit, and adverage joe dude has what.. 5Wp? 6Wp? Even if she rolls out all fours, they need a pair of nines/tens to dodge the spell? And then they get a minus on their Df flip for her melee attack, and - that in mind, with pandora there, she doesn't even need to hit them. A string of fours will kill somebody. And you can take two of them! And it's range 18"! And, you can give them flight to reposition them with impunity. Not to mention that this list has, in addition to all of this, Nekama stood there, not only enabling the instant annihilation of any model that the Lilitu can see, but also Being Bloody Nekama. O_o

It really strikes me as being 100% intended to be this dangerous because consider the models that you need to pull this off. How many SS is it to put this combo together?

Yeah it's balanced. It's 20ss just for the two of them and then you probably have the other sister so 27ss and then Pandora. So with a specific master and 20 - 27ss worth of models you can make this happen.... seems perfectly fair to me.

Seriously people.... consider how much it costs to do this. It is balanced, stop freaking out. It's better then the Seamus Undead Psychosis stupidity that can happen. It's just like any other nasty combo, except the cost on this one is huge. 20-27ss out of an average of 30ss.... yeah.... honestly guys, this is not broken.

[Omadon]

Pandora

Nekama-13

X2 Lilitu-14

Terror Tot-3

+5 stones

That, as a 35 point list, kills absolutly anything that it can see. Any model within 18 inches will drop dead. Double Take doesn't even check to see if they resist, it's on successful cast. So you can just drop fours all day, and if panda hits them, they're screwed. I'm gonna put up some battle reports of games with this, as ranting about how it looks on paper clearly isn't having the desired effect.

EDIT: Furthermore, aside from the combo there, it's not like these models don't have synergy. They're perfect for eachother. To have an instant-death loop on an enemy model that, at most, requires that you get a spell off on it with pandora before you start casting at them, in addition to models that synergize perfectly together, it just. god. I feel like we're reading different models here. How is this not completly busted? What beats it? Unless you can hide from the Wk5" flying Lilitu who have 18" range on lure for the entire game, goad activations until that point, and then kill the lot of them, then I just don't understand what anybody is supposed to do.

MORE EDIT: Also! As double take doesn't care weather or not you resist, it doesn't matter if it's a master or anything, sure, you'll resist a bunch of them from stones, but she only needs a 4, and you need, even with a master with 7Wp, thats solid 7s vs solid 4s. All you need to do is catch them with panda's project, that is the sole requirement. Another point just raised here - Lilitu also gives Panda free movement upto 18" around wherever she is, simply by chaincasting lure on her - early game, the lilitu don't need to move, so even if you just triple cast and fail expose fears, thats 12". This part itself isn't particularly bust - it just goes to show how much synergy this has.

I need to find me some enormous tournament that permits proxies in the UK before everybody comes to their senses

Edited September 4, 2010 by Omadon

[Sliver Chocobo]

or the other play holds back until the Lilitu's wither and die

[Omadon]

why do they wither and die? they use Twisted Thoughts to heal eachother, and Nekama gives them regen 1. That covers the three damage they would suffer from two sided, and as soon as you get a second blood counter on anybody, they make a Lelu, and suddenly you have oodles of healing, and the only way to try to stop it is to approach into the vortex of lures. From which there is no escape.

[Sliver Chocobo]

why do they wither and die? they use Twisted Thoughts to heal eachother, and Nekama gives them regen 1. That covers the three damage they would suffer from two sided, and as soon as you get a second blood counter on anybody, they make a Lelu, and suddenly you have oodles of healing, and the only way to try to stop it is to approach into the vortex of lures. From which there is no escape.

My mistake didn't realise that

[karn987]

Its not nearly as dangerous as it looks heh. Especially for the SS you invest in it. You can chain 1 maybe 2 models up, but all it takes is a moderately powerful model to screw you up. Really, your just over-stating it's power. I've played it and tried these "abusive" combos and they aren't all they appear to be on paper. You can still flip junk, it uses up a lot of cards, and all it takes is to lose one of the models and the combo starts to fall appart.

Yeah it's not a bad combo, but there are much more dangerous, deadly, and hard to stop. *shrugs* But I guess you just gotta play it for yourself at this point, can't convince you otherwise.

[nilus]

I can break this easy with an Ortega crew. Just keep most of my force outside of 18 and then use companion and obey to move one model a turn into position to activate and take out a Lelu. They have a good defense and healing but no real way to reduce damage so just about any Ortega in a good position using all there actions(remember used obey to move me into the right position first as part of the same round) can take one out.

[LastDinosaur]

A spell is not considered successfully cast if it is resisted.

Also.. Expose Fears doesn't work on friendly models (not that it changes the proposed gameplay much as Lure have Wp resist, it just means Pandora will need slightly higher cards to win the resist and thus move).

[Sliver Chocobo]

zoraida, obays nekimain into lilitu

[Omadon]

A spell is not considered successfully cast if it is resisted.

Also.. Expose Fears doesn't work on friendly models (not that it changes the proposed gameplay much as Lure have Wp resist, it just means Pandora will need slightly higher cards to win the resist and thus move).

Correct and incorrect - you're right about expose fears, pardon me on that, however. There are four steps to spellcasting - Step 1 is target decleration, Step 2 is the casting duel (Where we see weather or not something is Successfully Cast or not - also a place whereby you have room to activate a trigger), and then Step 3 is Resist Duels, and Step 4 is the application of spell effects. I remember this specifically because it's the same wording as Levi's Disciplined Caster, which doesn't care weather or not they resist.

Also, Chocobo - if you want to get into specific master VS situation responses, Panda could just project emotions onto her so that she's got a -flip on Wp duels, which should prevent her from breaking Lilitu's Irresistable (Or Panda's for that matter). But this is besides the point, there may well be a specific master/whatever combo that beats this. I'm sure somebody will think of one, but in the meantime. The broader implications of 18" death traps are all I'm concerned with.

[Keeblerpowell]

Ok so I am a prospect player. Got the first core book and read it last night. So very unfamiliar with combos and such.

I just wanted to know if this is a game where combos like this are really going to ruin the game.

I love tournament play and would really like this to be a solid game with really cool and fun interactions with all the models in most games.

I guess I am just asking if this type of brokenness is typical for this game or is this a fluke or a drop in play testing?

If i get into this game it will be my wife, my step-daughter and I all at the same time so I would like to know that I am making a sound investment.

Showing up to a tournament that has 7 of the same combo list with a total of 11 players would make me sad.

[Berman]

Its rather untested and a weird fluke. Wyrd is good about plugging anything trully broken.

This is on the line. It seem infinite on paper, but really you can't keep winning your casts. On the other hand it seems clear that lure might need a simple fix to state you can't lure a target when its already in your melee range or even when in base contact would fix this combo up nice. So we shall have to wait and see what happens.