Ramos & Hoffman

[Rob1981]

Hoffman is a M&SU member and can therefore be included in a Ramos crew hypothetically speaking in a larger game would I have to pay the additional +1SS to use some of the Guild Constructs as I'm hiring outside of my faction or the base price as I am including a Guild Master?

I know Ramos can take a few of them anyway but does he do so at a +1 SS without Hoffman?

[kbdrand]

First, Ramos cannot hire any construct from any faction. There are only some of the constructs outside of the archanist faction that he can hire. Any of those outside of his faction he would have to pay the +1 soulstone. If you were in a brawl with Hoffman then you would not pay the extra soulstone for those construct models.

[Rob1981]

Cheers, thats what I'm after. A lot of the new Guild toys have an ability that allows them to be used by Ramos and I was wondering if you needed to pay the additional SS as they don't have the 'Mercenary' trait.

[Wodschow]

Actually I believe most of this to be incorrect.

In Brawls you still have a chosen Faction, even if you field masters from two different Factions.

Let's say you choose the guild and Hoffman as your master.

Ramos can then join Hoffman (Ramos is an Arcanist construct without a fancy heart).

Even with Ramos in the crew you're still playing as the Guild and can take models from this Faction as normal.

Thanks to Hoffmans rules they can also take Arcanist constructs, but will still have to pay the out-of-faction +1 SS for it (you don't play the Arcanists and don't have a rule that let's you take them out of faction for free).

If you had chosen Arcanists as your faction and Ramos as your master.

Then I believe untill the Errata Hoffman would be unable to join Ramos altogether, as Ramos have no rule to allow him to hire Hoffman (I suspect he'll get the same rule as Colette for hiring M&SU members in the upcoming Errata though).

Random babbling that I got to think of while writing this:

If you choose the Guild as your Faction and Hoffman as your master and you then hire Leveticus as your second Master (he have the Mercenary trait and Hoffman is a Construct).

Then Leveticus' hiring rules pretty much overrules everything else. (You may hire none of the normal living Guild models, instead Undead, Constructs and Soulless models from all Factions at no extra cost - including those with fancy hearts.)

[kbdrand]

Hmm, I don't have the book in front of me, but Ramos has a special rule allowing him to hire all MS&U members and if Hoffman is an MS&U member then he should be able to pair with him in a brawl.

My understanding of brawl is that you are pairing masters, not hiring them (except with Viktoria where you pay the extra 5 ss). So yes, generally they follow the same rules, but with the special rule for Ramos in book 2 I thought he could pair with Hoffman (but not 100% sure since I don't have the book with me now).

Plus, Hoffman has a rule that lets him hire any construct without additional cost (I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the book) so in your first example that would be wrong. If you pick guild as your faction and hire Ramos you would not pay an extra +1 ss per construct (although in that case non-constructs may be an issue).

[Wodschow]

Okay.. Several things..

Rules are pretty consequent about choosing a -single- faction.

Colette can hire M&SU members from all factions and at no extra cost, Ramos however does -not- have any such rule (although I believe he'll be errataed to have it, as that would make the most sense).

So Hoffman (who is a M&SU member) can join an Arcanist player using Colette, but not Ramos.

Hoffman have an ability that allows him to hire 'Arcanist Constructs that do not have Frozen Heart or Smoldering Heart'.. He still have to pay +1SS for them.

Ramos may hire any number of M&SU Assets, this is not the same as M&SU members. Two different traits.

[LoboStele]

Ramos may hire any number of M&SU Assets, this is not the same as M&SU members. Two different traits.

That's one thing I still haven't been able to get straight. Which ones are which??

[kbdrand]

Sorry, was going off of memory since I don't have the book. I was pretty sure that Hoffman said with no additional cost, but I've been mistaken before.

And I agree, I assumed that MS&U Asset is the same thing as MS&U Member since what is the difference? What is an asset? He can already hire anything in the Archanist line. Does it mean that he can ignore the special forces limit and hire any number of Archanist special forces or does it mean that he can really hire any model that is an MS&U member? I really think it should be the latter. I mean, he is the head of the MS&U. It would be silly for him not to be able to hire another who is an MS&U member. And Hoffman is the plant in the MS&U for the guild so it makes sense that they could be together in a game (although technically Hoffman might have a secret agenda).

It would be cool if you were playing a brawl with Ramos and Hoffman and if the other side was Guild then there was a chance that Hoffman could switch sides.

[Wodschow]

@LoboStele?

M&SU Members:

Ramos, Joss, Johan, Colette, C. Hoffman.

M&SU Assets:

Anasalea, Gunsmith, Large Steampunk Arachnid, Soulstone Miner.

Just look at the name of the trait..? Not sure if that's what you asked for though.. xD

Fluffwise the assets are the unions special force, and so far this holds true rules-wise aswell, as there has yet to be released a M&SU Asset that doesn't have the Special Forces (M&SU Asset).

Don't know if this last part made sense, but look at the Stitched, they are dolls and not Special Forces (Doll) like every other of the Dolls.

[Wodschow]

Okay..

M&SU Member and M&SU Asset are just two different traits! It's really that simple.

Models with the Special Forces (M&SU Asset) follow the rules for Special Forces and are at the same time M&SU Assets.

In order to hire more than two models from any given type of Special Forces you need to include the Special Forces Leader, the leader of the Special Forces (M&SU Asset) is Anasalea Kaeris so if you include her in your force you can hire as many as you'd like.

Ramos is also allowed to bring more than two M&SU Assets which makes perfect sense fluffwise as he's the leader of the entire M&SU.

[LoboStele]

AHhh...that's why, I hadn't finished reading through all of Book 2 yet. 'Asset' is the new Special Forces distinction. Also sort of seems like most of the Unique characters are listed as 'Members' while the non-Uniques are 'Assets'. Not across the board though.

So it still stands that in a Brawl, you would have to start with Hoffman and then bring in Ramos. I still think it sucks that you have to pay the additional SS cost for bringing in any Arcanist constructs at that point, but I guess that's sort of the balance of determining Brawl lists, as most of the more powerful Master combos come from cross-faction pair ups.

[Wodschow]

Well actually I might be wrong concerning the Brawls with masters from different Factions.

I just go by rules as written when discussing things.

Back in Book1 this was also an issue and I believe it was ruled that if you chose Zoraida and then brought Jones in a Brawl you could hire Gremlins without paying +1SSand even bring Mosqitos (despite them being >Wp4 (thus not hireable by Zoraida)).

I had really expected them to take care of this problem.

Seeing however that they totally revamped the Encounters section with no mention whatsoever that Masters taken Out-of-Faction can bring their Minions (and at normal cost), my guess is that they can't..

[Virgil38]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14271&highlight=asset

This thread has it that Ramos can hire anyone from M&SU that he wishes.

[icemantis99]

No, Ramos can hire any number fo MSU special assets, as if he had the Henchmen (MSU Assets) type. I believe. :-P

[tadaka]

Ice you may want to look at the thread he linked. It was ruled he could take the hoff by wyrd.

[LoboStele]

Ice you may want to look at the thread he linked. It was ruled he could take the hoff by wyrd.

I believe that Sketch was just simply answering quickly that "Yes, you can include Ramos and Hoffman in a Brawl together." I don't think he was specifically saying that Ramos could hire Hoffman, just that they could be run together. The RAW indicate that you must start with Hoffman and then hire Ramos.

[icemantis99]

I'm gonna go ahead and PM Sketch for a clarification, because RAW is Assets, but Sketch did say members. he didn't reply to the rest of the thread yet though.

[MrNybbles]

I don't think he was looking at the rulebook when he typed that.

Now if your faction is Guild then C. Hoffman can hire Ramos via Arcanist Ties, but the reverse is not true. Ramos can only hire Special Forces(M&SU Assets) without restriction.

On a related note Colette can hire C. Hoffman via her Labor Union talent.

The important thing is that you do hire Masters therefore talents like Arcanist Ties and Labor Union allow you to hire Masters (and other models) you normally would not be able to.