Steampunk Abomination Change

[LastDinosaur]

But if your opponent pressing hard, you are forced to make a new Waif, just to be sure that Levi will have a place to resurrect when he dies. Making a new Waif is also a good method of moving Levy around the board. So I think this new rule will not change the game mechanics too much. Provided your usual opponent was not a defensive turtle...

Not sure what you are getting at here Csonti..

You can't have more than two Waifs in play at a time (scraps).. Before this change you'd just have to summon an extra at the start of the game and you'd keep those two throughout the game. If you felt the need to summon them every turn (ie. you'd lost both before Leveticus' activation and were in real danger of losing him aswell) then I think you were either not protecting the Waifs well enough or something was wrong with your opponents target priority.

Levy got rid of the Slow, so the extra AP is there. And as I said before, even playing with the old rules a good opponent has forced you to summon new Waifs anyway. And yes, Corpse Counters are very good for this.

You're replying on my reply to Nutcase so yeah.. I get the feel that you're missing something.

In my first post I wrote that he might just aswell be slow, since you're going to use that 'extra' AP (some would say there never was an extra to begin with, but whatever) for generating Waifs.

The biggest issue though is probably the fact that you can't jump within 6" anymore. Before you could keep your Waifs hidden behind buildings to keep them safe, if you do so now you'll have to position Leveticus out of sight. I suspect this alters the play style more than resummoning Waifs.

I've only ever proxied him a few times though, so not all too familiar with his play-style.. The impact of this change seems fairly large to me however.

[karn987]

But if your opponent pressing hard, you are forced to make a new Waif, just to be sure that Levi will have a place to resurrect when he dies. Making a new Waif is also a good method of moving Levy around the board. So I think this new rule will not change the game mechanics too much. Provided your usual opponent was not a defensive turtle...

Levy got rid of the Slow, so the extra AP is there. And as I said before, even playing with the old rules a good opponent has forced you to summon new Waifs anyway. And yes, Corpse Counters are very good for this.

I've been playing Levy for a while, I've gotten really good at keeping my Waifs safe. If Slurids or something quick want to press me, you kill them. Its that simple, Levy is the strongest single target model in the game. He can easily wipe them out.

A good opponent has nothing to do with this. I can literally keep them in places the enemy can not get to without going through Levy and the crew. He has the range, the power, and the crew has the maneuverability to catch and kill any flankers. If you know what your doing with Levy, you don't lose many Hollow Waifs. Infact the only time I lose them is the same time I lose Levy and most of my crew. *shrugs* It's not that hard to protect them like this.

Edited July 10, 2010 by karn987

[karn987]

The biggest issue though is probably the fact that you can't jump within 6" anymore. Before you could keep your Waifs hidden behind buildings to keep them safe, if you do so now you'll have to position Leveticus out of sight. I suspect this alters the play style more than resummoning Waifs.

I've only ever proxied him a few times though, so not all too familiar with his play-style.. The impact of this change seems fairly large to me however.

@LastDinosaur: Very observant of you and this is the big problem with the new wording. I think the new wording is lacking in this respect as Levy needs the working cycle of his death and rebirth to be as quick and as smooth as possible. Not coming back within 6" of a Waif is a big mistake. I think it needs to have him place within 6" of the waif, but otherwise keep it with the new wording so he has to keep making more Waif's if he wants to keep dieing and coming back.

The other huge issue with this whole thing is, what does Levy do if there are no living or undead models on the board? Then he is screwed, and I don't think thats a good thing. He literally gets into a near auto lose scenario where he can only die twice and then its over for him. Seeing as dieing nearly each turn is extremely important to him, I don't think this is right.

@Sketch and Eric

This change may have it's good side most of the time, but Sketch and Eric etc. I don't think you should do this. It makes him nearly 100% auto lose vs all construct crews or anything else in the future that may not be living or undead. I don't think it is a good idea at all.

The easiest way to solve this is rework his Necrotic Unmaking spell and let him chose to make a SPA or a Hollow Waif. With that little mod he's fine again. No more near 100% auto lose vs non living and undead crews.

But otherwise, think about it. He is already very hard to play correctly to begin with, this is just making him even harder to play. It's also introducing a crew match up in which Levy has next to no chance. Unless he is feeding off his own crews corpse counters to generate his Waifs, he has basically lost at Crew selection. I don't think that adds to a good model or a good balance in a game. It's also a HUGE change to his play style and how people will be forced to operate him. All in all, I think it's a bad idea alone, but still a good idea for forcing him to have to make more Waifs. Given the change to Necrotic Unmaking it should be fine. But yeah.... I think it would take a lot of fun out of Levy without it. Or something to help him keep his Waifs rolling out each turn vs non living and undead crews.

Edited July 10, 2010 by karn987

[Ropetus]

Spend 2 SS on a Canine Remains to get a second Graverobber and use Leve's own Corpse to make a new Waif every time he is killed? Problem solved.

-Ropetus

[karn987]

Spend 2 SS on a Canine Remains to get a second Graverobber and use Leve's own Corpse to make a new Waif every time he is killed? Problem solved.

-Ropetus

Ehh... fair enough but that is such a lame way to do that. I never liked doing that to begin with. Besides, he shouldn't have to go outside of his own theme crew to do what he needs to do.

[Csonti]

I've been playing Levy for a while, I've gotten really good at keeping my Waifs safe. If Slurids or something quick want to press me, I kill them. Its that simple, Levy is the strongest single target model in the game. He can easily wipe them out.

Hmm... I can't comment this without hurting your ego. So yes, you are right in every aspect!

[karn987]

Hmm... I can't comment this without hurting your ego. So yes, you are right in every aspect!

I didn't phrase that the way I meant to. Kudos to me for not rereading something before I post it ><

But you missed my point. My point was that if something is threatening your Waif's, you deal with it. You focus on it as much as it will take to do it, and then you move onto the next unit. Systematically take down your opposition. It's an effective counter to people who try to get to them. You can effectively hide them and limit the enemies lanes of approach so heavily that if they do go for them, they are walking into your trap. Unless you play with very little terrain or put Levy in an awkward situation where there is not a lot of terrain to protect his Waifs and even himself, it works.

There are many fast units yes, I've had Pigs come stampeding up and manage to take them out. I've had them killed by Ronin when they used to be able to just dash up field. But the key to dealing with those threats is as I said, simple. You kill them. You prioritize them and then eliminate them. Using your Waifs as bate works well if you have the cards and SS to ensure you can A) kill whatever it is coming up and keep levy safe for that turn.

Edited July 10, 2010 by karn987

[Justin]

Ehh... fair enough but that is such a lame way to do that. I never liked doing that to begin with. Besides, he shouldn't have to go outside of his own theme crew to do what he needs to do.

If Levy's theme resided only in the few models that specifically revolved around him, those would be the only models he could take. Have a look at the gremlins.

I think Levy can take all those other models because they DO fit into his theme.

[karn987]

If Levy's theme resided only in the few models that specifically revolved around him, those would be the only models he could take. Have a look at the gremlins.

I think Levy can take all those other models because they DO fit into his theme.

Ahhh right, your right Lalo. I forgot about the previous discussion. All the models he can take are part of his theme even if they are not his special models.

But still, I just don't feel right about doing that :/ Probably just me though I guess...

[tenabrae]

@Karn - Guild Austringers... pretty hard to deal with without something fast, impossible to hide from.

--

I think it's a change that needs serious playtesting. The combination of no SPA linking to other constructs and no free waif, and no leapfrog/hide waif in corner summoning is IMO going to make Levi near unplayable against any semi-competent player.

The other slow combat casters work because they either throw out huge blasts (sonnia, raspy) or have synergy with their minions (ramos, nico) or have a range/crazy nonsense advantage (Big Z, pandy). Levi used to fit in the latter category and works because it's hard to kill both his parts and he's manouverable (and doesn't have to be terrified of getting stuck in).

This change removes his hard-to-killness to a large extent and also destroys his manouverability while simultaneously reducing his raw damage output (due to the need to hit specific things to make waifs). It's also a potential massive balance issue if you can't hit something to make a waif (i.e. if the enemy crew are constructs or *cough* *cough*)

Maybe there's more errata to come on his other related models like the waifs, or some of his other abilities... If so, get rid of this errata till your ready, and if not, at least consider a rethink, wait till your Gencon stuff is done and you've had a nice nap, and let us playtest some solutions.

Edited July 10, 2010 by tenabrae

[karn987]

@Karn - Guild Austringers... pretty hard to deal with without something fast, impossible to hide from.

--

I think it's a change that needs serious playtesting. The combination of no SPA linking to other constructs and no free waif, and no leapfrog/hide waif in corner summoning is IMO going to make Levi near unplayable against any semi-competent player.

The other slow combat casters work because they either throw out huge blasts (sonnia, raspy) or have synergy with their minions (ramos, nico) or have a range/crazy nonsense advantage (Big Z, pandy). Levi used to fit in the latter category and works because it's hard to kill both his parts and he's manouverable (and doesn't have to be terrified of getting stuck in).

This change removes his hard-to-killness to a large extent and also destroys his manouverability while simultaneously reducing his raw damage output (due to the need to hit specific things to make waifs). It's also a potential massive balance issue if you can't hit something to make a waif (i.e. if the enemy crew are constructs or *cough* *cough*)

Maybe there's more errata to come on his other related models like the waifs, or some of his other abilities... If so, get rid of this errata till your ready, and if not, at least consider a rethink, wait till your Gencon stuff is done and you've had a nice nap, and let us playtest some solutions.

+1 Yeah this needs searious play testing, I have a bad feeling about it right now

[Guy in Suit]

All I know is I just picked up my Levi crew on Thursday and this whole thread makes me go :'(

[karn987]

All I know is I just picked up my Levi crew on Thursday and this whole thread makes me go :'(

EricJ and the rest at Wyrd are really good guys, they usually make the right decision in the end. I think with all the negative feed back they are getting about this change something will be done to balance this out. Don't despair yet =D That change to Levy isn't even official yet untill it hits the errata page. Still time to salvage it.

[n0signal]

Well, it has hit the Errata page now. *sigh* In my worst case scenario I'd expected a "place Levi in base contact and sacrifice the Waif" type deal; this replace malarkey is going to slow Levi down to a crawl and make his turn extremely predictable (lots of walking and trying to make Waifs from corpse tokens!!). Urgh. Either that, or because my Waifs are positioned so that Levi can actually get stuck in next turn, someone will just kill them off and spank Levi; I already have to contend with very little scenery when I face some of my shootier opponents. I might have to reserve Levi for when the table is ultra-dense with terrain now.

[karn987]

Well, it has hit the Errata page now. *sigh* In my worst case scenario I'd expected a "place Levi in base contact and sacrifice the Waif" type deal; this replace malarkey is going to slow Levi down to a crawl and make his turn extremely predictable (lots of walking and trying to make Waifs from corpse tokens!!). Urgh. Either that, or because my Waifs are positioned so that Levi can actually get stuck in next turn, someone will just kill them off and spank Levi; I already have to contend with very little scenery when I face some of my shootier opponents. I might have to reserve Levi for when the table is ultra-dense with terrain now.

Really? ARG! Come on ><

The Replace BS is supposed to be a mistake though. At least thats what Bugking was saying. So hopefully Sketch corrects his post ASAP.

I slept on the change and mulling it over in my head and I really think this is a very very bad change alone. I think Wyrd has just done it's first cuddle. Its a very bad cuddle to. It's not like Levy was dominating the fields of peoples games. He's hard enough to play as is, now he has to spend all game hunting for Waifs, thats incredibly lame. Or you have to bring a dog and dig up bodies constantly, thats also incredibly lame.

@Wyrd: Guys please rethink this. This change is not a good one as it is. It really needs more work. It ruins Levy.

[Kevan]

huh... So does that mean Canine Remains are auto include now? Maybe 2 of them? Just so they can (all) and get a token each turn... lol

[Ropetus]

It ruins Levy.

How many games have you played with the new ruling? Maybe you should try it in practice before saying how it makes Leve totally unplayable. As long as you kill something during your turn, you can use Entropic Transformation to summon a Waif. Leve has Casting Expert for a free cast of it.

All Construct crews might require some extra measures but at the moment Ramos and Rasputina are the only ones doing that regularly. They have weaknesses like limited mobility to hunt you Waifs so you can manage with less. Steamborgs generate Corpse Counters in addition to Scrap too.

Play a few games and see if it really is "a total cuddle" or just a change to playstyle.

From a background point of view I think that change makes a lot of sense. I can totally imagine Leve moving his soul into a Waif which consumes up the Waif.

-Ropetus

EDIT:

huh... So does that mean Canine Remains are auto include now? Maybe 2 of them? Just so they can (all) and get a token each turn... lol

Can't. According to errata only Scavengers can search for Scrap Counters. This ability was removed from Graverobbers since it made Nicodem and a hoard of Canines totally insane (dig up 6 corpses a turn and turn them into 3 Flesh Constructs...). The Dogs are still useful to have a Graverobber on the field when Leve dies (so he generates a Corpse) and to carry Corpses to him so he can turn them into Waifs.

-Ropetus

Edited July 11, 2010 by Ropetus

[karn987]

How many games have you played with the new ruling? Maybe you should try it in practice before saying how it makes Leve totally unplayable. As long as you kill something during your turn, you can use Entropic Transformation to summon a Waif. Leve has Casting Expert for a free cast of it.

All Construct crews might require some extra measures but at the moment Ramos and Rasputina are the only ones doing that regularly. They have weaknesses like limited mobility to hunt you Waifs so you can manage with less. Steamborgs generate Corpse Counters in addition to Scrap too.

Play a few games and see if it really is "a total cuddle" or just a change to playstyle.

From a background point of view I think that change makes a lot of sense. I can totally imagine Leve moving his soul into a Waif which consumes up the Waif.

-Ropetus

If you read my posts you would know that I agree with the change, that Levy needed to consume the Waif he comes back through. But at the same time, he needs a reliable way to create more when faced with nonliving and undead models. You shouldn't have to go to Canine remains to get what you need. He should be able to do it himself through his own abilities. Hense my suggestion to change Nectroic Unmaking to let you make either SPA or Waifs. Or something along this line.

I've been Levy long enough to have a good enough feel for him to realize how subtle changes like this will effect him. A lot of people have to. But you are right, it needs playing to see what the effect is fully on the field as you often realize more when you do this. Obviously I fully intend to do this, it should go without saying Rope ;D.

EDIT:

Can't. According to errata only Scavengers can search for Scrap Counters. This ability was removed from Graverobbers since it made Nicodem and a hoard of Canines totally insane (dig up 6 corpses a turn and turn them into 3 Flesh Constructs...). The Dogs are still useful to have a Graverobber on the field when Leve dies (so he generates a Corpse) and to carry Corpses to him so he can turn them into Waifs.

-Ropetus

So then Levy is even more screwed in this respect and this change is even worse then people are realizing.

[Iamwyrd]

I seen that the ruling has hit the errata board. Does I mean what it really says. "Replace a hollow waif" so if the waif is wounded and somehow living still Levi gets those wounds?

And what is this talk about Levi not getting his free waif everytime he is resummoned?

[Ropetus]

And what is this talk about Levi not getting his free waif everytime he is resummoned?

The Waifs get resummoned if they have been killed or sacrificed during the turn. Waifs Replaced by Leveticus don't get resummoned.

About the Construct thing: I thought you could choose your Steampunk Abominations to drop Corpse or Scrap Counters when they die. When some of them die, they can drop you Corpses to be turned into Waifs. They will get attacked since no opponent will want to face the Engine.

-Ropetus

[karn987]

I seen that the ruling has hit the errata board. Does I mean what it really says. "Replace a hollow waif" so if the waif is wounded and somehow living still Levi gets those wounds?

And what is this talk about Levi not getting his free waif everytime he is resummoned?

Look at the new wording for Eternally Shackled. It currently says: "Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, replace a Hollow Waif" and the replace is the main issue with this. Because the Waif is replaced with Levy all the bad parts of Replace kick in AND the Waif wont come back because the Waif only returns if it has been killed or sacrificed. So the waif that was used to bring him back doesn't come back.

The basic idea of the errata seems to be to force Levy to have to make new Waifs more often. Basically when he returns to play, the waif he returned from is consumed and wont be back. The problem is, Replace is bad wording for it and Bugking has already said it should be place instead of replace. But even then, what happens to the Waif? There is still a lot of confusion about the whole thing going on with the apparent misprint and what it really means and the whole impact on Levy.

[karn987]

About the Construct thing: I thought you could choose your Steampunk Abominations to drop Corpse or Scrap Counters when they die. When some of them die, they can drop you Corpses to be turned into Waifs. They will get attacked since no opponent will want to face the Engine.

-Ropetus

You can, we touched upon this earlier in the thread. You can use their bodies to make new Waifs but this is still really bad for Levy.

Your using a body you would normally use to make another SPA from (having it drop a scrap and not a corpse). Considering how often SPA's die in most games and how important they can be for him, its not a good solution either. It forces you to make the choice between the two, but considering how rapidly Levy will need Corpse counters (About one every other turn at least) and how critical scrap counters can be its not condussive to a good play style because it fights for a critical resource for the crew and there really is no choice... the Waifs will always have to win out if you want to keep Levy alive.

I like that it makes you take the choice, but if your playing a Vanilla Levy list (Ie Desolation Engine, SPA's, and Alyce) your relying heavily upon the SPA's to get up field and do their job. Having to get them killed to make Waifs disrupts his fragile play style. It also doesn't give him much of a choice in his crew lay out as he will always want to have at least 2 models that can leave Corpse counters for his Waifs throughout the game.

Edited July 11, 2010 by karn987

[Ropetus]

But you do that only when facing a Construct army in which case you cannot get Corpses from enemies. But when all your enemies are Constructs, they drop you the Scrap Counters to turn into more Abominations, right?

-Ropetus

[karn987]

But you do that only when facing a Construct army and cannot get Corpses from enemies. Killed enemy Constructs get you the Scrap Counters to make more Abominations in this case, right?

-Ropetus

Hmm you have a point. They do generate counters that you could use. So maybe its not that bad from that stand point. But it's still clumsy. Levy was self contained and now he's not (He could do his entire life cycle through his own abilities). Now he needs to depend on bringing the right crew and not going against the wrong crew. That rubs the wrong way.

[TheBugKing]

To answer Karns Question with Place:

You would place a Waif in Base to Base contact. Then sacrifice all Waifs in play.

We are discussing this.

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