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Outcasts moving to Brawl status.


Pox

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So any faction can hire anything from within their own faction - Ramos with ice gamin, Lilith with slimes and woes, The Ortega family led by Lady Justice (that one IS painful!!) and they can also hire outcasts with the "mercenary" trait.

Outcasts can only hire Outcasts.

the Vics can only hire mercenary's, Sam can only hire gremlins and pigs, Levi can hire any undead, construct or something else (But he is doing pretty well.)

So how do you successfully increase an outcast Crew to Brawl status? Since the 3 masters cannot hire any of the others (so at brawl status you HAVE to only have 1 master and get your extra 10 soulstones.) And are still limited to a very select number of models (with many of the mercenaries being unique doesn't help either.)

how do you successfully fight a brawl especially since most people will be packing two rather nasty powerhouse masters - and you only have 1? (none of which apart from maybe Levi are particularly powerful)

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Vickys have rules allowing them to be used in other crews, Levi can team up with any construct, undead or soulless (see: ramos) gremlins can team with zoraida.

yes Levi i can understand he can pick and mix between factions - nice!

the gremlins can team up with Zoraida ok, interesting (Assumes she cannot hire Sam?)

EDIT: well she cannot hire Sam or mosquitos and rules still state she can only hire up to 2 outcast models and will have to pay +1 soulstone per the 2 gremlins she can hire. If you want to use Sam then you CANNOT legally take another master (apart from the vics i guess? as they will work for anyone?) And woe betide you if you want to use your mosquitos and a horde of pigs and gremlins.

but the vics? i thought the ruleing in a Brawl was that you may take an outcast master but only then 2 more outcast models in a brawl.

so you cannot take your outcast crew and expand on it, as much as use an ENTIRELY different crew and put what 4 models from your outcast crew in it and pay the extra points for the "privilege" of using outcast models? (counting Vics as 2 models here, or Zoraida can take 2 gremlins - woot.)

Edited by Pox
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This is my understanding of the situation:

Leveticus can ally with Ramos.

Viktorias can be taken with everyone except Leveticus, but pays a fairly large price for it.. (I don't understand this limitation on them.. :( )

Jones can go with Zoraida and Viktorias (though they still have to pay I think).

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This is my understanding of the situation:

Leveticus can ally with Ramos.

Viktorias can be taken with everyone except Leveticus, but pays a fairly large price for it.. (I don't understand this limitation on them.. :( )

Jones can go with Zoraida and Viktorias (though they still have to pay I think).

Jones can't go with Zoraida he can only take the vics (And yes still has to pay through the nose for it.)

Zoraida may take 2 outcast models only, so that's what 2 gremlins? (unless her rule overrides that limit, but she still can't get Jones or mosquitos.)

The vics may go with other crews but then can only take a MAXIMUM of 2 outcast models with her (so it is hardly an outcast crew any more is it?) EDIT: and you would have to pay 5 soulstone to take the vics, and an extra 2 soulstones to get the other two outcast members - meaning you are 7 soulstones out of pocket as it is (especially since the vics do not come with any soulstone themselves.) and well that cost is a little more then prohibative.

Levi, well levi is pretty safe - plenty of constructs and undead to pick from.

Edited by Pox
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Ah.. I see what you're getting at now..

It's part of Jones' rules that he can be taken with Zoraida though.

Also Gremlins don't have the 'mercenary'-trait, so you can take any number you want with Zoraida as they're all below Wp4.

As for the Viks I'm not certain, but I was under the impression that once you took her you were free to add both from the faction and from the outcasts. I realize now that I'm probably wrong on this one though.

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Som'er Teeth Jones has a rule stating that in a Brawl he can join with other Outcast Masters or Zoraida. This would mean that at the moment he can join with the Vik's and Zoraida (Levi's rules prevent allying with him).

Vik's can join with anyone (except Levi) and allows to take any number of Mercs in a Brawl (similar to how taking Som'er allows to hire unlimited Gremlins and Pigs). The cost of including them is quite high for most crews though with their 0 Cache and 5 soulstone reduction.

As said, Levi can only join with Ramos.

-Ropetus

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Vik's can join with anyone (except Levi) and allows to take any number of Mercs in a Brawl (similar to how taking Som'er allows to hire unlimited Gremlins and Pigs).

This was how I assumed it worked aswell. Rereading the 'Encounters'-section I don't see it supported by the rules though.

Also Som'er doesn't allow that?

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Som'er can team up with crews containing Zoraida or other Outcast Crews as per his ability "Good ol' Boys"

"Good ol' Boys" also limits crew selection for Som'er to Gremlins, Vermin, and Pigs. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook, FAQ, or Errata pertaining to specific ownership of models within a crew other then the Totems which are connected to their specific named Master, so RAW means crew selection for Brawls would have to meet each masters hiring restrictions.This means that in a brawl the only models (other then the other Master) need to fit the criteria for Som'er. Because Som'er is in the Crew then the Gremlins, Pigs, and Vermin wouldn't cost the usual +1 SS.

Right now that is how it stacks up for Som'er. Definately think that the Brawl size eccounter needs to be expanded to help clear up this issue by either establishing ownership of specific models to each master (i.e. two seperate crews working together for the same goal) or each Master drawing from a shared Pool of henchmen(i.e. two Masters working together for the same goal but using only henchmen they both like).

Edited by Omenbringer
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Ill-Fated only affects the hand size of crews containing Jones.

Good 'ol Boys is the one that limits models in a crew with Jones. If he's in a crew, that crew can only hire Gremlin, Pig, and Vermin Models during scraps. It says nothing about brawls, and says he can join Outcast crews and crews with Zoraida in brawls.

In other words, in brawl you can add Jones to any Outcast crew (possibly including some Gremlins, Pigs, and/or Mosquitoes).

You could also add him to a brawl crew with Zoraida, which could include Gremlins and/or Pigs, since she can hire living models with a wp of 4 or less. (No Mosquitoes, though, since they're not Neverborn and have a wp of 6.)

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Ill-Fated only affects the hand size of crews containing Jones.

Good 'ol Boys is the one that limits models in a crew with Jones. If he's in a crew, that crew can only hire Gremlin, Pig, and Vermin Models during scraps. It says nothing about brawls, and says he can join Outcast crews and crews with Zoraida in brawls.

In other words, in brawl you can add Jones to any Outcast crew (possibly including some Gremlins, Pigs, and/or Mosquitoes).

You could also add him to a brawl crew with Zoraida, which could include Gremlins and/or Pigs, since she can hire living models with a wp of 4 or less. (No Mosquitoes, though, since they're not Neverborn and have a wp of 6.)

You're wrong about Jones.

Ok, this is how outcasts work in a brawl.

The Victorias can ally with anyone but Levi. (this includes Jones) When she does, she can hire mercenaries like she normally does, in addition to any models the allied master allows you to take.

Jones can ally with other outcasts (at the moment only the vics) If he does he can hire normally, and so can the vics. Giving you both Sommer's crew availability and Victorias. You can also ally him with Zoraida, in which case you will be able to hire gremlins, pigs, and vermin normally without any increased cost (since you are running sommer) and any neverborn model without any increased cost. (since you are running Zoraida) They are both masters. There is no reason to preferentially refer to Zoraida's hiring rules over Sommer's. So, you could hire a gremlin with Zoraida for +1 soul stone...or you could hire it with Sommer at its normal cost. Take your pick, I know which master will be hiring the gremlins during a brawl.

In fact, since the good ol boys rule is worded: "Crews containing this model can only hire gremlin, pig, and vermin models during scraps" there is absolutely no limitation on sommer's hiring during brawls. In other words, he hires from the outcast section normally during brawls. So, you could have a brawl with Sommer and Zoraida allied in which they take the desolation engine.

Edited by Justin
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Could you give us a reference for this Lalochezia? Or can anyone else confirm this is indeed how it works?

The Leveticus part I especially don't understand as his 'Pariah' refers to the entire crew.

Edit:

If this is how it works then I don't understand why you could only hire Leveticus with Ramos..

Everything would make alot more sense if a Brawl consisted of two Scrap crews, as Leve should really work for anyone.

Edited by Wodschow
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Could you give us a reference for this Lalochezia? Or can anyone else confirm this is indeed how it works?

The Leveticus part I especially don't understand as his 'Pariah' refers to the entire crew.

Edit:

If this is how it works then I don't understand why you could only hire Leveticus with Ramos..

Everything would make alot more sense if a Brawl consisted of two Scrap crews, as Leve should really work for anyone.

Yeah, you're right, I got Levi wrong.

Ramos and Levy wouldn't be able to hire any archanist, Levi's hiring restriction would apply.

The rest I'm positive about though.

Although gremlins being able to hire a desolation engine in a brawl I'm sure was not intended, but it is technically rules as written for now.

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@ GremlinSwarm thanks for the catch on Ill fated (not sure why I typed that) corrected in the earlier post so it wont cause confusion later down the road.

Although gremlins being able to hire a desolation engine in a brawl I'm sure was not intended, but it is technically rules as written for now.

Nice catch on the during Scraps part of Good ol' Boys, I have read over that so many times. Still think the Brawl encounter level needs some further explanation as is it doesn't clearly state how the crews are handled (are they seperate or communal, i.e. each master selects their crew then you run them together, or the Masters select their crews from the list of models that both could hire?

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The Victorias can ally with anyone but Levi. (this includes Jones) When she does, she can hire mercenaries like she normally does, in addition to any models the allied master allows you to take.

This... a nice conclusion but how is it supported by the rules?

P96 "You may only hire Minions from within your chosen Faction or up to a maximum of 2 Minions with the Mercenary charectoristic."

the Vics special rule: "Crews containing this model may only hire mercenary models during Scraps. This model may join a Crew with any other Master in a brawl."

So with the vics and another Master the question becomes "what is your chosen faction?"

If it is outcast then you can only hire outcast and pay +1 soulstone for the other people you have in the brawl (outside of your faction, and still pay the 5 soulstone penalty for using vics with another master)

or you faction is the other group - in which case you pay +1 soulstone for the mercs and possibly have a maximum of 2 anyways?

or you end up with a joint faction group that pays neither +1 for employing outside of their faction (Still have to pay the outrageous 5 soulstone vic cost) and may have as many mercs as you want?

rules not be clear on this one - so will move to rules discussion.

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or you end up with a joint faction group that pays neither +1 for employing outside of their faction (Still have to pay the outrageous 5 soulstone vic cost) and may have as many mercs as you want?

rules not be clear on this one - so will move to rules discussion.

This one.

If you're running two masters from different factions, you have two chosen factions.

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Actually, there's no limit on which Outcast models the Vics can hire during a brawl (aside from individual models' restrictions--Alyce, for example). So, if you really wanted to, you could have them leading a whole mass of Gremlins into battle. (There's a strange picture...Maybe if they were painted to look like David Bowie as the Goblin King?)

That FAQ thing about the cost of models with Jones is a bit counter-intuitive, at least given how the rules read right now. (I just checked the book, the current FAQ, and the errata, but that thread is about as official as you can get.)

Is there going to be a modification (errata?) to make it that a brawl crew with masters from different factions counts as being of both factions?

I think that would clear up a lot of this confusion. (The cost of Gremlins in a Zoraida/Jones crew, for example.)

Edited by Gremlin Swarm
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