uses for the doppleganger

[Iron Man]

now that the doppleganger is out, i was wondering how useful everyone was finding it?

I used it for the first time yesterday, and it got completely ganked by a viktoria move and double move companion charge thingy, which was a sacrifice of the swords vik but i think my opponent didnt want the negative initiative flips.

now the problem being dopplegangers abilities only last till the end close phase, so if i do take a high df stat from someone, my opponent will just ignore it till next turn, knowing that because i took df i didnt take a nasty combat ability.

so maybes the doppleanger is supposed to be used more sneakily? how about stealing vik's entwined ability, where anything that effects them affects all viks, and then casting self loathing on the doppleganger. if the doppleganger steals teddies hard to wound 2, it shouldnt punch itself to death, but it should damage both viks quite a bit.

Also stealing terrifying off teddy, hopefully after pandora has made everyone get negative wp flips, would be good to get the enemy crew running away.

Im just trying to justify the high cost of the doppleganger, as i think i am missing something vital in its use.

[Ropetus]

how about stealing vik's entwined ability, where anything that effects them affects all viks, and then casting self loathing on the doppleganger.

Doesn't work for two reasons. First, you may not copy an ability that names a model (in this case Viktoria). Second, the ability only affects friendly Viktorias anyway.

-Ropetus

[Sliver Chocobo]

Doesn't work for two reasons. First, you may not copy an ability that names a model (in this case Viktoria). Second, the ability only affects friendly Viktorias anyway.

-Ropetus

You had to ruin it for me

[Lucidicide]

I played vs a Doppelganger last night. The negative initiative flips are annoying.

In any case, my opponent used it for whatever he needed then, which is why the cost is so high. It's true that the effects end at end closing phase, but if you activate the Doppelganger first (which is easier because of the initiative modifier) your effects still last for a long time. The ability to properly read a situation is what makes her useful.

Sure, the Doppelganger wasn't doing more damage output than a MNeph or casting better than the Master, but doing both and healing sure was nice for my opponent.

[Q'iq'el]

I have the same issues with Doppleganger Iron Man has, so I'm still considering getting it for my Lilith crew.

I suppose I could use it as an adaptive weapon - if there are Ortegas on the table, it'll be shooting and if I fight heavy casters, it'll add some magic ability to the crew.

However if I wait till the end of the phase with activation (so that I can adapt well to the situation), it's a sitting target with df4, wp4 and 8 wounds.

If I activate it early and chose defensive stats, it'll be pretty much useless.

If I activate early and go for offensive stats, I may make sub-optimal choices (which is OK I guess - that's the game) and I'm still sitting duck with 4-ish defensive stats.

I can see it somewhat useful to steal "Zombie Control" of Nico or "The Box Opens" from Pandora, but I can't help thinking stealing these otherwise unique and powerful abilities without the whole package of synergies results mostly in gimmicks (may mess up opponent's plans in a funny way, but is unlikely to matter). Other, potentially powerful abilities, like "Survival of the Fittest", either point at the character by name or were re-worded to work only on friendly models, so they wouldn't benefit Doppleganger at all.

In other words it's a whopping 8 soul stones for adaptability, but the AP limit means it's a half-good/half-mediocre model every turn.

I'm sure my lack of experience in Malifaux means I'm missing something big, so I'm looking forward to seeing some practical advice in this thread. TIA.

[Iron Man]

the problem is with pandora's crew you already have so many models that have to go first. sorrows have to go first to link before whatever it links to moves. pandora has to go first to terrorise enemy models before kade and teddy hit them. and now the doppleganger has to go first to keep itself alive.

just as a thought, could a doppleganger steal a ressurectionists ability to create undead from corpse counters, and bring friendly undead on the dopplegangers side? or would that suffer the same problem as the viktoria idea?

im starting to think doppleganger my be best holding back until combat is joined, then just stealing a nasty combat attack (like teddies bite) and melee expert, and jumping in there and causing havoc.

[Q'iq'el]

just as a thought, could a doppleganger steal a ressurectionists ability to create undead from corpse counters, and bring friendly undead on the dopplegangers side? or would that suffer the same problem as the viktoria idea?

I think some would work. Depends on the wording.

You can't for example mimic Nico's "(1)Reanimator" spell, because to cast it successfully it takes two crows, and you can't mimic his Ca. The same applies to other Ressurectionists' main summoning spells.

You can copy Arise, but all it produces are Mindless Zombies (and Nico can grab control over them).

You could probably quite successfully Mimic "Entropic Transformation" - that requires just a single Tome, so if you have it in your Control Cards you can pull it out and summon Hollow Waif or a Steampunk Abomination. Especially, that it works not only on corpse counters and scrap counters, but also on enemy models with less than 2Wd.

I think the problem is most powerful spells are pretty much protected from Mimic Spells - either by wording or by CC requirements. Or if you can cast them, the outcome is more or less useless for your team (like summoning Hollow Waifs).

*Not to mention that you'd probably need models for the undead you want to summon. Your opponent doesn't have to borrow you his minis, after all, and if you have no minis, you can't summon. Considering the fact by borrowing you minis he limits the # of minis he can summon himself, this is not something one can really ask for even in a friendly game.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

I think some would work. Depends on the wording.

You can't for example mimic Nico's "(1)Reanimator" spell, because to cast it successfully it takes two crows, and you can't mimic his Ca. The same applies to other Ressurectionists' main summoning spells.

You can copy Arise, but all it produces are Mindless Zombies (and Nico can grab control over them).

You could probably quite successfully Mimic "Entropic Transformation" - that requires just a single Tome, so if you have it in your Control Cards you can pull it out and summon Hollow Waif or a Steampunk Abomination. Especially, that it works not only on corpse counters and scrap counters, but also on enemy models with less than 2Wd.

I think the problem is most powerful spells are pretty much protected from Mimic Spells - either by wording or by CC requirements. Or if you can cast them, the outcome is more or less useless for your team (like summoning Hollow Waifs).

Not quite I belive the can the double ganger take stats?

[Lucidicide]

I think that with some proper planning you won't need a ton of models that need to go first. If you plan the turn ahead, your Sorrows can already be linked. By your own reasoning, Pandora doesn't need to go first, just before Teddy and Kade.

I certainly wouldn't run the Doppelganger straight in or fight it on its own. When I faced it, it ran in the turn after a MNeph and took some great combat ability. If I took out the Doppel, I'd still be getting blasted by the MNeph. If I took out the MNeph, the Doppel would just take whatever else was laying around and use that against me.

[Q'iq'el]

Not quite I belive the can the double ganger take stats?

Not all of them.

Mimic Statistics is limited to Wk/Cg, Ht, Wp or Df.

If you Mimic Attack, you don't get Cb, but use Dopplegangers's own Cb to attack.

I do not see any way to mimic CA at all, though I may be missing something.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

Not all of them.

Mimic Statistics is limited to Wk/Cg, Ht, Wp or Df.

If you Mimic Attack, you don't get Cb, but use Dopplegangers's own Cb to attack.

I do not see any way to mimic CA at all, though I may be missing something.

I thought it could (don't have my rule book to hand to check), but even if it could do it's extermly difficult combo to pull off, yet alone use effectively and consistently

[Q'iq'el]

I certainly wouldn't run the Doppelganger straight in or fight it on its own. When I faced it, it ran in the turn after a MNeph and took some great combat ability. If I took out the Doppel, I'd still be getting blasted by the MNeph. If I took out the MNeph, the Doppel would just take whatever else was laying around and use that against me.

Well, that's target dilution for you. Hardly a survivability bonus on the Doppelganger itself and something you have to pay for double in the end (Mature Nephilim isn't cheap either).

You could find many other models for similar price, which would produce same effect but also work on their own. Take for example two Mature Nephilim - your final effect is the same (whichever model you hit, you will have Mature Nephilim blasting you). For 2 SS more you have 2 models with full stat range.

Not even counting the mercenaries, you get the Hooded Rider, Bad Juju, Candy and Teddy all in the similar price range and all of them are full time offensive models with decent defensive abilities.

I'm a new player and I love the model. The rules leave me a bit clueless though.

The way I see it, 2x (0) action does not put it on par with regular models (they get 2 actions with all the gear and spells included and an extra (0) action Doppel essentially misses).

Then almost every single attack or spell one mimics requires the player to have a high card of the right suit in his hand - not only are Doppel's stats limited comparing to the original it mimics the ability from, but it also needs to match the suits which often come native to the original. It seems to be a control card hog...

Edited May 9, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Zethal]

If you are trying to use a Doppel as a fighter you are misunderstanding its potential.

Ill Omens is amazing.

Then the dopple is a Woe, allowing and suggesting synergy with Pandora. While other masters certainly find the doppel useful with Pandora the doppel creates a whole new level of possibilities.

Within a her crew the doppel provides various uses:

1. She is likely to have many woes and this is a much needed non-insignificant model.

2. Despite neverborns general ability to have little problem with terrain, the Doppel is the only Woe with scout.

3. Being a Woe allows Pandora, Candy and Kade to use Martyr with it.

4. As discussed here. The dopple is capable of copying Emotional Trauma. Giving some nice extra damage if Sorrows have been killed or it is to dangerous for Pandora to Fade up to 3".

5. Also discussed within that thread is having the doppel copy Unhealthy Relationship. Thus in turns where you can hide out and wait with most of your activations you could copy unhealthy relationship (and Trauma if you expect the dopple to be within 12") move it up next to some sorrows. Have the Sorrows copy Trauma, then link them to Pandora if they are not already. Now you have 2-3 sorrows with trauma and stress making opponents take 2 wounds if within 3" per sorrow or 1 for 12". With a total of 3-5 per failed Wp duel at 12".

5. Unhealthy relationship can also be used to get Kade or sorrows to heal themselves, have candy or kade easily regain harmless, give Kade a better weapon. Give Woe's Leap, Sweets, chameleon, Drain Blood, Link, Smell Fear, Thing of Nightmares, etc.

Due to the general lack of powerful stats the Doppel has even copying a good weapon with it is not going to turn it into a useful fighter. Instead there are a great many things it can do in the back lines supporting and assisting your crew, while at the same time allowing you to be a little reckless on later activations as you are almost certain to go get the first one next round.

While the doppel really shines in a Pandora crew thanks to Trauma and Unhealthy relationship, it can also be quite useful in a Zoraida crew with copying obey or bewitch and cause I can't stress this enough Ill Omens is great in every list.

[Q'iq'el]

Thanks Zethal. That's a lot of synergy I've been missing on, because I haven't even considered Pandora yet.

I've been trying to fit Dopel into Lilith's crew. I think I pass on it for now, get some other model that supports her crew better in the meantime and go for it once I start a Pandora or Zoraida's crew.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Thanks Zethal. That's a lot of synergy I've been missing on, because I haven't even considered Pandora yet.

I've been trying to fit Dopel into Lilith's crew. I think I pass on it for now, get some other model that supports her crew better in the meantime and go for it once I start a Pandora or Zoraida's crew.

Waldgiest! That is a creature that has good synergy with Lilith. Lilith creates a forest and the waldgiest runs with it to bang out damage. Also Lilith's crew moves fast through terrain and the Waldgiest is no exception.

It is out now, so get it and I promise you will not regret it.

[Q'iq'el]

Waldgiest! That is a creature that has good synergy with Lilith. Lilith creates a forest and the waldgiest runs with it to bang out damage. Also Lilith's crew moves fast through terrain and the Waldgiest is no exception.

It is out now, so get it and I promise you will not regret it.

Oh, the Waldgeist's already on the list. It's just that I like the Doppelganger model and tried to work it into my crew. I'll just wait with it till I get more masters.

Actually can't wait for the Waldgeist to appear in the Online Store!

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Oh, the Waldgeist's already on the list. It's just that I like the Doppelganger model and tried to work it into my crew. I'll just wait with it till I get more masters.

Actually can't wait for the Waldgeist to appear in the Online Store!

You're right. It is not in the store quite yet. Soon though.

[Omadon]

5. Unhealthy relationship can also be used to get Kade or sorrows to heal themselves, have candy or kade easily regain harmless, give Kade a better weapon. Give Woe's Leap, Sweets, chameleon, Drain Blood, Link, Smell Fear, Thing of Nightmares, etc.

This post makes me sad D: Right. Turn one, link a bunch of sorrows to Panda, and have a dopple copy link and use it. Then, on turn two - copy unhealthy relationship and emotional trauma. Then - when you walk the sorrows over to the dopple, It gives them Mimic. With mimic - they then copy emotional trauma. This means that you then have 4-5 extra sources of her 12" aura that inflicts wounds. Using a combination of this - and clever uses of dementia, I've depopulated an entire board with 2AP to spare (Had a studen of conflict) - the opposing master (McMorning) died in two spells and a 0. From my deployment zone, in his deployment zone.

In short - Just. For gods sake. Look at unhealthy relationship. I mean really look at it.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Omadon

[Zethal]

It gives them Mimic. With mimic - they then copy emotional trauma...

In short - Just. For gods sake. Look at unhealthy relationship. I mean really look at it.

I have and did, and it would be nice if you to read before criticizing, so that it is constructive rather then aggressive.

Not only did I mention the link that you brought this up in, I also referenced this strategy within my post.

Also discussed within that thread is having the doppel copy Unhealthy Relationship. Thus in turns where you can hide out and wait with most of your activations you could copy unhealthy relationship (and Trauma if you expect the dopple to be within 12") move it up next to some sorrows. Have the Sorrows copy Trauma, then link them to Pandora if they are not already. Now you have 2-3 sorrows with trauma and stress making opponents take 2 wounds if within 3" per sorrow or 1 for 12". With a total of 3-5 per failed Wp duel at 12".

The only aspect not mentioned is linking the doppel, which would cost one of the 0 actions and has other downsides like putting the doppel in more danger and besides that there is not confirmation on this ruling yet. As it is taking so long it seems obvious it was not an intended aspect of the design and that Wyrd is deciding if it is to powerful to allow it or if they have already decided they want to remove it they are working on how the phrase the ability.

[wrabbit37]

I used the Doppelganger twice yesterday - first couple times I played. First was against Lucidicide - I took Zoraida. Her negative init flip meant I went first every turn, and that was huge. My Mature Nephilim was able to keep pressure on him and he was never able to go first and clock him before the Nephilim put some pain out. She was sitting pretty using Obey on the Nephilim an additional time meaning he could chock up six attacks in a turn while maintaining the initiative flow for myself. Once the Mature Nephilim died, she was able to rush forward and grab other weaponry to do the job herself. The negative initiative flips were awesome. I never didn't have a job for her to do in a turn.

The second game, with Lilith, she was just as useful. While the negative flips didn't do great for me this time, I was able to do things like copy Lilith's forest spell and toss it up on one side of the fight to give some protection while Lilith rushed in with full actions to kill off the flanking piece of the force. She was able to rush in with Nephilim paired claws and beat the tar out of one model, then when a Ronin came by to try to grab her, she turned around with the claws and killed him in a single activation. We had to cut the game early, but she was about to copy the Convict Gunslinger's weapon and fury and blast one of the Vikki's a few times too.

I still haven't even picked her up with Pandora and I still count her high among my potential models. The thing is she's never without a task. Whatever she needs to do, she can do. I need her to relocate fast? Grab Sprint from my Tots. Need more actions for my master? Have her copy whatever I need to get done. Need a backup fighter? She'll cover that. Need an additional casting of Obey? On it. And all this while she's already assuring I go first amost every turn. I give this model two thumbs up.

[Chev Chelios]

I used the Doppelganger twice yesterday - first couple times I played. First was against Lucidicide - I took Zoraida. Her negative init flip meant I went first every turn, and that was huge. My Mature Nephilim was able to keep pressure on him and he was never able to go first and clock him before the Nephilim put some pain out. She was sitting pretty using Obey on the Nephilim an additional time meaning he could chock up six attacks in a turn while maintaining the initiative flow for myself. Once the Mature Nephilim died, she was able to rush forward and grab other weaponry to do the job herself. The negative initiative flips were awesome. I never didn't have a job for her to do in a turn.

What were you using with her with Zoraida? Other than the Mature Neph.

[wrabbit37]

What were you using with her with Zoraida? Other than the Mature Neph.

Let me think... I think I had a convict gunslinger, a terror tot, a mature nephilim, a doppelganger, zoraida and her voodoo doll for 30 stones.

[Chev Chelios]

Cool. I've been trying to come up with a crew using Zoraida and the Doppleganger at the 25ss level.

[Justin]

It's nice having another model with use soulstone.

[Omadon]

Not only did I mention the link that you brought this up in, I also referenced this strategy within my post.

mm. apparently I managed to look physically around the important part of your post. I do appologise D:

On a sidenote, I think I should look at her + zoradia sumore at some point. It's immensley versatile with her. Copying/Using Raven for a free 20 inches worth of movement late game. Copying proper manners and a decent defense stat if she's got nothing better to do. Hell - she can even copy the ability to summon a Voodoo Doll so that Zoradia doesn't have to waste AP. She's not quite the behemoth of oblivion she is in Panda's hands, she just feels like a good model with Zoradia, as opposed to the keystone to the anti-life equation