How to beat Pandora?

[Deathodia920]

I was playing a 1v1v1 and Rathnard had Pandora as his master. Now my question is what are some of her inherit weaknesses, how do you exploit them?

And are their any specific things i can do with Lilith to beat her?

Thanks

- Deathodia920-

[Wombats]

Transposition a Sorrow and Whirling Death to clear out her Sorrows.

Count up the Sorrow's Willpower+13 and Soulstone if necessary to make it happen.

You will need to Soulstone the Willpower to hit Pandora, hit her last as you may well fail.

They are the most dangerous to Lilith after Self Loathing.

Keep Soulstones back for resisting Self Loathing.

With equal cards you'll miss against Candy and Kade with Df7.

So pull out their big cards with your medium cards and surprise them with big cards towards the end of the round.

There will be times the cards fail you and you'll just be locked down.

Pandora is equally likely to fluff her Willpower duel and be two-shotted with ease.

If you see a Crows come up on a cast (not Pacify/Incite, they are abilities and can't trigger a cast trigger) make sure you resist it, you won't see that model again for two activations, otherwise.

Remember Pandora is essentially a melee master.

She needs to close to do damage, too.

You are in no hurry to get there.

Get outside her 12" range the round before you strike.

She can close 4" every time she wins a Willpower duel, including Pacify/Incite on her own crew so she will alpha strike you if she wants.

Time your big card and Soulstone to strand her close to your crew - she stops firing Pacify/Incite when she fails one.

She can make it into 3", punish you with her Sorrows and get out 12" with three casts...but to do that reliably she probably won't have many Soulstones left.

That is when you hit her over and over until she fails her Willpower duel.

It'll hurt but the first time you get through she'll be half dead and the second time she won't have a hope.

Strike with Lilith if you can as she can Soulstone the Willpower duel adding more randomness so Pandora can get unlucky.

[Rathnard]

Well hey there!

Wombats more or less summed it up. You saw how much damage Pandy could do with a pair of sorrows backing her up. But without the Sorrows I would have had a much harder time stripping 20 wounds from both the Mature Neph and Lilith before you start getting through my Wp duels.

Soulstones are definitely the go if you want to target Pandora. Without them you'll have a hard time getting the chance to hit her.

I think Wombat is only partially right when he says that Pandora is a melee master. She can dish out horrendous damage up close with the sorrows around, but don't expect her to be useless from a distance. She can still strip wounds from 10-12" away, just not at anywhere near the rate that she does with sorrows nearby.

And Transposition - I'd forgotten about that little gem when we were playing. Definitely give that spell a go next time!

[goblyn13]

When given the option, use models with blasts, martyr only sluffs off to a model in base contact, so the blast can still swing back against her. Also, target the Sorrows, they don't have the benefit of Expose Fears so your free to target them in base contact.

Don't worry about kade until he starts getting close to melee, Candy is the nastier of the bunch because she can spam Self-Loathing up to 3 times a turn. But do remember Candy's casting cost is 1 point higher on Self-loathing (needs a 13) than Pandora's Self loathing spell(only needs a 12).

If any of the kids have a sorrow linked to them, go for the sorrow first, he's only got a Df of 4 which makes him all kinds of easy to hit. And this is wear blasts are even better as they get caught in collateral damage.

[Deathodia920]

Thanks everyone for the great tips. I just have some question

Transposition a Sorrow and Whirling Death to clear out her Sorrows.

Would you transpostion Lilith or say a mature nephlim? or would transpostioning Pandora and placing her next to Lilith and a Mnephlim and clobber her to death that way?

Next time if i insta-kill Candy i'm leaving her dead!

- Deathodia920 -

[ork56]

how to beat Pandora?......run away.

played against her(Ninelives) with Nico last night

P/Kade/Candy/Teddy/2xSorrows - reconnoiter and Kidnap

N/Morty/3xNecropunks/4xCanine Remains/2xVulture - Treasure Hunt and Army of the Dead

As you can see I was built for speed. Managed to get the V to drop on the counter turn one then SS the ini roll to get it away next round. P is very slow, but Ninelives was using her for the first time and hadnt figured the incite your own team trick (nor had I).

Was back in my own deployment on turn 3 awaiting the storm but thinking, shes not that tough. Then she got within 12" and started a torrent of Wp checks which pinged wounds away on all my figures with ease. Unfortunately, despite holding red/black jokers plus 13/13/12/10 in my hand I had no easy access to corpses as the only dead thing was in the middle of the table on the far side of all his crew. I didnt want to sacrifice dogs as I was thinking of AotD, but in hindsight dropping a dog for a Punk Zombie (or a Belle when I get them painted) would have been better; swapping an insignificant dog for a good fighter.

We both made some mistakes in the game, esp me backing into my deployment corner allowing P to get good coverage with the 12" bubble.

Teddy is a monster - one shotting Morty:bawling: I realised that Nico has nothing to wound it with because all my offensive spells are against Wp and it is Immune to Influence.

With the corpse counters beginning to mount up I raised a Flesh Construct who was cut down to size by Kade. Many Mindless Zombies ended up blocking movement but were also cut down

At the close P/C/K/T and N/4xCR plus a second FC were left on the board. Pandora had abandoned the Reconnoitre to go all out to steal my treasure and kidnap Nico, it was a bold plan and only just failed.

In summary, keep away from her, drop sorrows as soon as possible (as noted before blasts are good). If you can avoid clumping up inside her 12" then you are in with a good chance. I would see that Perdita would have an easier time, but it is all scheme dependant.

[Joona]

Would you transpostion Lilith or say a mature nephlim? or would transpostioning Pandora and placing her next to Lilith and a Mnephlim and clobber her to death that way?

Next time if i insta-kill Candy i'm leaving her dead!

- Deathodia920 -

Trying to Transposition Pandora is a bit hard. Pandoras willpower is two higher than Lilith's casting and they both can use soulstones. If Pandora wins the WP resist duel, she can push 4" to do nasty stuff or hide. It's better to transposition something next to her, like switching a Sorrow with a Mature Neph, and then kill the Sorrow with Lilith. To get the transposition off close to Pandora means that you'll have to lose a WP duel and take a wound for Pandora being within 12" and every Sorrow within 3" too. So, running a Terror Tot close to make the Transposition easier should not necessarily be done. The Tot will die a quick death.

The push after WP duels also makes clobbering pandy to death rather hard too. Fail one test (which is quite likely if you're trying to do it with a Nephilim, also possible with Lilith). If you can't get the first hit in, she'll be running out of your melee range quickly and you'll have to catch her again.

Teddy is a monster - one shotting Morty:bawling: I realised that Nico has nothing to wound it with because all my offensive spells are against Wp and it is Immune to Influence.

He's not Immune to Influence while within 12" of Pandora He is a monster though and extremely hard to kill unless you have something that can kill him in one round. Candy and regeneration will quickly heal him up unless you manage to kill him.

Getting a Hanged to hit Pandora at some point would definetely be a game winner though. for the rest of the game for WP duels makes her cry. She will be burning through soulstones just not to fall back from the Terrifying tests.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Joona

[Wombats]

Would you transpostion Lilith or say a mature nephlim?

Transpose Lilith so she can Whirling Death all the remaining Sorrows and Pandora (for kicks).

Try and do it late in the round when Pandora has activated so if you get first Activation next round you won't have to weather a storm of Self Loathing.

[Rathnard]

P is very slow, but Ninelives was using her for the first time and hadnt figured the incite your own team trick (nor had I).

With Fading memory and a supply of pacify targets, she's arguably the fastest model in the game. Only Zoraida with her Ravens Flight can really match her (albiet much more reliably).

I realised that Nico has nothing to wound it with because all my offensive spells are against Wp and it is Immune to Influence.

I'll need to check up on the rules for it, but I think "The box opens" would cause teddy to lose his immunity to influence when he's within 12" of Pandy.

Pandora had abandoned the Reconnoitre to go all out to steal my treasure and kidnap Nico, it was a bold plan and only just failed.

Reconnoitre is not an easy strategy for Pandora, if only because her sorrows are insignificant. If you ever face a Pandy player with Reconnoitre, you can probably count on her ignoring the mission and going for the scheme/s instead.

And with a crew that mostly kills things at range, kidnap is not a scheme that Pandora should ever willingly take. Lilith definitely. Zoraida maybe. But Pandora? Not if I have a choice.

Next time if i insta-kill Candy i'm leaving her dead!

Of that I have no doubt whatsoever. Just remember that I'll probably have her linked to a sorrow next time to siphon off a lethal hit (as if you didn't need another reason to kill the Sorrows when possible. ).

[Ninelives]

Reconnoitre is not an easy strategy for Pandora, if only because her sorrows are insignificant. If you ever face a Pandy player with Reconnoitre, you can probably count on her ignoring the mission and going for the scheme/s instead.

And with a crew that mostly kills things at range, kidnap is not a scheme that Pandora should ever willingly take. Lilith definitely. Zoraida maybe. But Pandora? Not if I have a choice.

Hi Just to explain about the battle last night. I have played Seamus and crew for the last 10+ games and thought it was time to try a new crew hence I was not built for the reconnoitre strategy. I picked the Neverborn scheme simply because I had never had access to it before always playing Seamus.

Ork56 and I play friendly games so none of the above mattered as we both had a lot of fun in the game. By turn 4 I was starting to get the hang of how to use Pandora and have to say she was fun to play. If anyone out there has been thinking of giving her a try then I would recommend it. I'm certainly looking forward to finding some more tricks her crew can perform and playing the crew more efficiently.

[Deathodia920]

Of that I have no doubt whatsoever. Just remember that I'll probably have her linked to a sorrow next time to siphon off a lethal hit (as if you didn't need another reason to kill the Sorrows when possible. ).

Yeh but if you do that i wont need the red joker damage then another severe damage will i?

Once i have a few more games under my belt i'd like to play against Pandora to test all of these tips out.

- Deathodia920 -

[ork56]

didnt realise sorrows were insignificant??

[RitualNet]

I'm looking at Pandora's Crew as my first set, however I'm worried that if she is a bit hard to beat, that the other two people will get sick of playing and just either stop, or I'll end up buying *another* crew and keeping Pandora to gather dust.

Is she that difficult to deal with? So far my opponents are looking at Rasputina and Sommer's crews.

I guess this sounds a little daft, but I've been on the receiving end of a player who "played to win" rather then for fun, and every game I lost. It got to the point where I dreaded playing games with him.

[Deathodia920]

No i dont think she's that difficult to beat, it was just my second game of Malifaux so i was still learning the rules.

She's just a different type of master, played sideways instead of forward if you get my meaning.

- Deathodia920 -

[ispep]

I'm looking at Pandora's Crew as my first set, however I'm worried that if she is a bit hard to beat, that the other two people will get sick of playing and just either stop, or I'll end up buying *another* crew and keeping Pandora to gather dust.

Is she that difficult to deal with? So far my opponents are looking at Rasputina and Sommer's crews.

I guess this sounds a little daft, but I've been on the receiving end of a player who "played to win" rather then for fun, and every game I lost. It got to the point where I dreaded playing games with him.

I would definitely steer your friend away from Som'er as a first crew. While the Gremlins are characterful and have some fun tricks, it is a very difficult crew to play effectively. If I hadn't already owned the Seamus box, my Gremlin experience would have made me quit the game all together.

[Joona]

Is she that difficult to deal with? So far my opponents are looking at Rasputina and Sommer's crews.

I guess this sounds a little daft, but I've been on the receiving end of a player who "played to win" rather then for fun, and every game I lost. It got to the point where I dreaded playing games with him.

She shouldn't be that hard to beat if all the players are about equal level. A beginner is quite likely to make mistakes while playing with Pandora. It isn't that hard for Rasputina to ping those blasts of hers on Pandora without worrying about the willpower duels, either from her own models, or yours. Somer's crew will be in trouble with their low willpower though. Of course they have blasts too but aren't as likely to manage doing stuff with them. With a lot of Mosquitoes it's possible to fart Pandora to death though...

It all depends a lot on the strategies too. At least with just the crew set Pandora will be screwed easily on Reconnoiter as she only has three non-insignificant models and you need four for full points.

And like ispep said, the Gremlins aren't necessarily the perfect first crew. If you have some idea on how to play them you might be able to have fun but they do require a lot of extra models just to be effective/playable. The starter just doesn't cut it.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Joona

[Amarel]

Is she that difficult to deal with? So far my opponents are looking at Rasputina and Sommer's crews.

Played well, yes. She has a huge threat range, the ability to get back out of range of return attacks, can easily turn your opponents advantages against themselves (e.g. powerful attacks) for which she always has the advantage (with her high WP anyway and then ways to further reduce her opponents) and has a great defence against being attacked (again her high WP will often give her the advantage).

Kill whatever she brings with her to slow her down and then try to trap her on a turn when you have a decent control hand.

[RitualNet]

I'll let my friend know about the gremlins, see if he'll go for the guild, I hear they are pretty good for starters. That and Seamus.

I do like Zoriada, so maybe I'll go for her first, pick up Pandora's crew second, and then mix and match. That's the beauty of the starters, if I get all three neverborns, I'll (in theory) not need to buy any figures a while.

[Pavic]

...including Pacify/Incite on her own crew so she will alpha strike you if she wants....

Ok, for the life of me, I can't see how Pandy can use incite/pacify to allow her crew to alpha strike. What am I missing here?

[RitualNet]

from what I've heard... you incite/pacify one of your units, who then willingly fails. Pandora then uses Fading Memory, which pushes her 4" in any direction. As that's a move action, any sorrows linked to her will snap to her. You cast it again on another of her units, and gets another 4". You keep doing that until you get near the opponent's figures, where you can then start using incite/pacify on them, causing them to lose wounds each time they fail (plus more for each sorrow around her). I think that's basically how it works, although I'm probably not exactly right. :/

[Csonti]

from what I've heard... you incite/pacify one of your units, who then willingly fails. Pandora then uses Fading Memory, which pushes her 4" in any direction. As that's a move action, any sorrows linked to her will snap to her. You cast it again on another of her units, and gets another 4". You keep doing that until you get near the opponent's figures, where you can then start using incite/pacify on them, causing them to lose wounds each time they fail (plus more for each sorrow around her). I think that's basically how it works, although I'm probably not exactly right. :/

You are mostly right but you made a common mistake: incite/pacify is NOT a spell, therefore defending friendly models can't willingly lose the duel. Of course you can cheat in a low card but the deck can always trick you and leave Pandy in the open.

It's just a matter of style but when you are close enough to do the alpha strike, shooting Project Emotions first (maybe with the use of an SS) is a very good idea. Chose [-] flip for Wp duels and you can easily Self-Loath the target(s) or whatever you want. After spellcasting you can go back to safety with offensive Incite/Pacify actions using those mentally torn enemy models.

And don't forget you can Incite/Pacify Pandora herself to gain another 4".

[Pavic]

That is not what I have heard referred to as an alpha strike. I thought that an alpha strike specifically referred to activating all of your models prior to any of your opponents, as Perdita is able to do through companion. I guess alpha strike has different meanings based on the master now.

[Csonti]

Alpha Strike is a tactical blow landed on the enemy before he has a chance to hit you. Ie. it refers to the first devastating attack(s) during the battle which usually leaves the opponent so crippled that he literally just lost the game.

So the Ortegas can move in one bunch and make an alpha strike before the enemy can activate a single model. BUT Pandora can do similar harm with the help of a few Sorrows from a very large distance. She can easily rout 2-3 key models who happen to position themselves too close to each other. Or she can kill them with the Sorrows in range. That's definetly enough for an alpha strike.