Amarel Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 (edited) Hey all, Wondering what people's experiences have been taking on Pandora with a Vik crew? I've tried the following two set-ups at 25pts with some level of success (i.e. I can see where a bit of extra luck might have made the difference, or where a bad move on my part has cost me a little bit), but I don't think I was ever in the running to actually win : Vik (+3 SS) Hamelin Taelor Convict Gunslinger Vik (+1 SS) Taelor Johan Convict Gunslinger Ronin And this is versus: Pandora (+7 SS) Baby Kade Candy 3 x Sorrows The problem I face is the movement of Pandora (I managed to get close enough with the Ronin to remove her Linked Sorrow, but then never caught her again), followed by the amount of health I lose to losing a WP duel against her (as she has enough Soul Stones to force me to be on a negative flip with them (Self-Loathing) essentially removing my control deck from the game). She can do (and *nearly* has done ) the following in one turn: Pacify (on a Sorrow who has already moved).Push 4"Pacify (on a Sorrow who has already moved).Push 4"Project Emotion --> Pity (the one that makes you face all WP tests with a neg flip) with a Soul Stone cheat on Vik (and -1 WD for failing)Self-Loathing (the one that makes you hit yourself) --> Vik [on Negative Flips] (- 1 WD)+(damage from own weapon on neg flip)Self-Loathing (the one that makes you hit yourself) --> Vik [on Negative Flips] (- 1 WD)++(damage from own weapon on neg flip)Push 4" (back out of LoS and any chance of combat range). Now this was pretty nasty (and from a starting distance of 20" away to safety again), and I got bit / very lucky to survive it. So, what do other people do? You can't stay out of range of her as she has pretty much as many free 4" pushes as she needs. You can't rely on burning a Soul Stone to avoid PE: Pity (and it's negative flips on your WP duels / resists) as she can cast it as many times as her AP allows and with her SS cache can eventually wear you down. And once you have failed you're likely not going to survive due to the amount of damage you take from failing every WP duel and cutting yourself up. So what have I found works to some degree? Hamelin did well against her, but not being able to cast Obey on her limits his ability to get her where she's needed. He's also able to lord it about in front of Kade and Candy without fear of being attacked.The Ronin, with her speed and relative expendability, caused a fair amount of fear and forced retrospective reaction (and took out a Sorrow with ease, which was very useful).Johan is a great all-rounder and Slow to Die forces a decision on whether to take him out or not which distracts from bigger threats.The Convict Gunslinger's Suppressing Fire is useful for Control Card discards.Taelor's ability to use Hammerstrike to push members of her own crew a little closer helps, but it does mean she gets left behind quite a lot. [Removed Question - yes any fail on a WP test, counts as a failed WP duel and a wound will be taken if within 12" of Pandy (as per Weird Sketches answer to this question on the rules board)] I'd really like this thread to be about tactics, rather than any moaning about Pandora; EricJ has previously stated that people finding out how good Pandora was expected and that he now expects people to work out how to beat her - so let's prove him right . Edited February 28, 2010 by Amarel Various fixes and tweaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetang22 Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 One huge thing I see right off the bat: Vik 1SS/3SS Pandora 7SS Thats going to be one hell of an uphill battle for Vik. Vik is very reliant on SS's, especially against somebody like Pandy where she's going to need them to make sure she can even target her, then more to guarantee the big hits. If Pandy is running around with 7SS to your 1 or 3....good luck, she's got a much bigger advantage than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarel Posted February 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 One huge thing I see right off the bat: Vik 1SS/3SS Pandora 7SS Thats going to be one hell of an uphill battle for Vik. Vik is very reliant on SS's, especially against somebody like Pandy where she's going to need them to make sure she can even target her, then more to guarantee the big hits. If Pandy is running around with 7SS to your 1 or 3....good luck, she's got a much bigger advantage than you. Definitely - the Soul Stones difference feels massive, but to even that out Vik needs to run with either a very small crew (and that hurts in terms of impending threat and preventing intricate character combos) or a crew without any 'big names'. Perhaps something like: Vik (+6 SS) Hamelin Convict Gunslinger Ronin Would be a decent middle ground? Although that does look quite fragile it's a little deceptive due to Hamelin not having to worry about the kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusty Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 just as a note, self loathing is the spell that makes the target themselves with a ... project emotions: pity is the one that gives a to wp duels... playing a sorrow legion, a problem ive had against some crews is target saturation... its easy for us to deal with a few strong threats, where a lot of low//mid threats can be kind of dangerous... and like said, the SS gap can be a big problem (especially when trying to protect 2 masters with one small pool) that being said, i think your last list is closer to what you might want... IMO, i would try ditching hamelin (heresy, i know, but stick with me) for a cheap name (see: taelor, johan, another gunslinger) and then adding another ronin (which are fantastic, and given theyre combat stats//abilities, can take out or seriously weaken lots of models in a sorrow crew and still make a decent retreat) this would still leave you with 2, 4, or 5SS to use as needed... so maybe for one game you try: vikis ronin ronin gunslinger gunslinger, johan, or taelor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Song Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 Vikki's = 0 Taelor = 8 Ronin = 5 Ronin = 5 Gunslinger = 5 Student of Conflict - 3 4ss Stay away from Pandora. Period. That being said the student will give you the Fast that could help. I would attack with Ronins asap though and take out the sorrows and one of the others candy or cade. Having run through and the possibility to trigger for 4 more is huge. As stated suppress fire with gunslinger Taelor is just nasty, try to creep her up as you should be distracting attention with Ronins. Move the Viki's vis Sister's in Spirit. You can also give a Vik fast, and since it is companioned to a Vik, the 2 Viks can now go. Move 5 and again cast sisters via fast then charge or move move onto Pandora. Works best if opponent has moved Pandy towards you first. I like the student mainly because it can give fast to any model within 6". a Ronin, Taelor or Gunslinger or Vik. A gunslinger with fast is sick. Move then rapidfire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarel Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 just as a note, self loathing is the spell that makes the target themselves with a ... project emotions: pity is the one that gives a to wp duels... I knew I'd get them mixed it if I worked from memory... Cheers, I'll fix that up. playing a sorrow legion, a problem ive had against some crews is target saturation... its easy for us to deal with a few strong threats, where a lot of low//mid threats can be kind of dangerous... and like said, the SS gap can be a big problem (especially when trying to protect 2 masters with one small pool) Yes, definitely. Whirlwind is very handy if you can get the trigger, in fact it's ideal when Pandy or one of the Kids has an attached Sorrow. The "Let Vikki use each Soul Stone twice" campaign, starts here . that being said, i think your last list is closer to what you might want... IMO, i would try ditching hamelin (heresy, i know, but stick with me) for a cheap name (see: taelor, johan, another gunslinger) and then adding another ronin (which are fantastic, and given theyre combat stats//abilities, can take out or seriously weaken lots of models in a sorrow crew and still make a decent retreat) this would still leave you with 2, 4, or 5SS to use as needed... so maybe for one game you try: vikis ronin ronin gunslinger gunslinger, johan, or taelor Can't take two Gunslingers can we? (Still haven't got my book on me, but he's Rare 1). But I like the idea. Perhaps make it a call between Johan and Misaki, leaving 4 / 3 SS. Not sure it's quite enough, but it's workable, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarel Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 Vikki's = 0 Taelor = 8 Ronin = 5 Ronin = 5 Gunslinger = 5 Student of Conflict - 3 4ss Interesting 30 SS list. Could even bump the Soul Stones by swapping Taelor for Johan - not as nasty in combat, but the Ranged Attack and Slow to Die are very useful. Stay away from Pandora. Period. I do try, but her threat range is immense - she can easily threaten a guaranteed 24" bubble around herself. That being said the student will give you the Fast that could help. I would attack with Ronins asap though and take out the sorrows and one of the others candy or cade. Having run through and the possibility to trigger for 4 more is huge. As stated suppress fire with gunslinger Taelor is just nasty, try to creep her up as you should be distracting attention with Ronins. Move the Viki's vis Sister's in Spirit. You can also give a Vik fast, and since it is companioned to a Vik, the 2 Viks can now go. Move 5 and again cast sisters via fast then charge or move move onto Pandora. Works best if opponent has moved Pandy towards you first. I like the student mainly because it can give fast to any model within 6". a Ronin, Taelor or Gunslinger or Vik. A gunslinger with fast is sick. Move then rapidfire. This is all very useful - Fast Gunslinger, particularly, sounds like a blast :vb_devil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusty Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 oh i didnt realize convi is a rare 1... my b also just a note, dont forget the power of sacrificing a ronin with 1 or 2 wounds left to get 2 soul stones in return... totally worth it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreadpiratelynx Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Question for the OP: How is Pandy using Pacify twice in a round? I don't have my book or card in front of me right now, so does she have something that allows her to use two (0) actions per activation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmore Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Interresting... I just got the Pandora crew. Thx for the tips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusty Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 as long as you get pacify//incite off, you can choose to do it again on another target, so potentially doing it a bunch of times with one model every turn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wombats Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Pandora gets to cast Pacify/Incite at another target if she succeeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarel Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 As stated Pandora can re-cast Pacify / Incite (although not both in the same round) as long as she succeeds with her current casting, and she can cast it at any point in her turn. Add to that that she can cast it against a friendly model and auto-fail with them then it allows for these long movements. I guess the best option is, if possible, to just stay back behind cover and wait for Pandy to make the first move. But, even then, she can still threaten 20" and then move back to her starting position easily, with 4" in either direction to spare, and still cast three spells which will kill a lot of non-immune to WP models (assuming a SS cheat on PE: Pity to force it through). Any thoughts on taking the following: Vik Student of Conflict Ronin x 3 It's very single-minded, but Fast on Vik + Sisters in Spirit gives her an immense theoretical threat range of 30" and the Ronin can use each other and BH Vik to create a longer threat range via a Run Through -> Next Target string. @Blackmoor: What makes this really work is that the Sorrows first turn is to move and link meaning the Pandy player can watch all of the opposing player turns before making her move, and as she will have a Sorrow linked to her then she has a free 4" move trailing her around, too so she can always get back to safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wombats Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I just advised one of my newbies to take the triple Ronin and Student. Its efficient, flexible and the Soulstones mean you can dish out some collossal damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 (edited) - Self-Loathing (the one that makes you hit yourself) --> Vik [on Negative Flips] (- 1 WD)++(damage from own weapon on neg flip) - Push 4" (back out of LoS and any chance of combat range). Pandora doesn't get her fading memory push on any of her spells (eg. Self Loathing). This is because Pandy is actually making a casting flip, not a Wp duel. Just because the target must make a Wp resist, it does not mean that Pandy now counts as making a Wp Duel. That said, I'm quite sure that Pandy CAN target herself with a pacify. She'd simultaneously win and lose the duel, and thus trigger fading memory. Something to watch out for. Add to that that she can cast [pacify/incite] against a friendly model and auto-fail with them then it allows for these long movements. Pandy's minions can't choose to auto-fail a pacify/incite test. Only Resists can be auto-failed and pacify/incite are opposed duels, not resists. That said, The Pandy player can still choose to cheat out a low card for any friendly sorrow that she happens to target. Oh and while I'm at it, she can't trigger Mental Anguish off a Pacify/Incite (Ca only) and she has the option to successfully pacify/incite something and then cast a few spells before and then pacify/inciting again during a single activation. It's also important to remember that The Box Opens seems to be overidden by activated spells/abilities (eg. bullet bending, Lady J's thing) and the immunity loss is Wp duels ONLY. So Undead and the like are still immune to fall back, etc. She's a complicated caster. ----- Anyway, my main fear when using Pandy is blast effects. A smart player will target a blast attack against any model nearby Pandy and bounce it onto her. She doesn't get expose fears against the attack, and so she's very vulnerable to them. It probably goes without saying that with a few exceptions (Kade & Teddy) Pandy doesn't care about Df. Therefore, neither should you. Models with high Wp and Wd values are obviously the hardest for Pandy to deal with, especially if you can stop those sorrows from getting close enough to multiply the wounds caused by Pandy. Looking over the minions available to the Vics, I dunno, it looks like you'll be fighting an uphill battle against Pandy. Hamelin looks like a solid choice for his high Wp and effective immunity to Candy/Kade, and the Gunslinger would be a solid choice (as always ) for his shooting and control hand shenanigans. You best chance probably lies in ensuring you have enough soulstones to rush Pandy with the Vics. Definitely make sure you clear out the sorrows though - otherwise Pandy will transfer the lethal damage to a linked sorrow, pacify out of combat and deal an arse-load of wounds to the Vics while they're within 3" of any other sorrows. One more thing - don't bump up the damage to the Vics swords (I forget the spell) unless you're ABSOLUTELY SURE that Pandy won't be targetting them with self-loathing afterwards. Edited March 19, 2010 by Rathnard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarel Posted March 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 Pandora doesn't get her fading memory push on any of her spells (eg. Self Loathing). This is because Pandy is actually making a casting flip, not a Wp duel. Just because the target must make a Wp resist, it does not mean that Pandy now counts as making a Wp Duel. That is why I listed the two actions as two actions. She can cast self-loathing (action 1) and then she can cast pacify / incite again on her pet Sorrow and move back 4" (action 2). The example I gave was a chain of events, not a single action . Pandy's minions can't choose to auto-fail a pacify/incite test. Only Resists can be auto-failed and pacify/incite are opposed duels, not resists. That said, The Pandy player can still choose to cheat out a low card for any friendly sorrow that she happens to target Yes, we realised that we had been playing this wrong due it coming up in a post earlier this week. That actually makes her more interesting (if potentially a little less powerful) as she now has a use for any card in her control deck. Anyway, my main fear when using Pandy is blast effects. A smart player will target a blast attack against any model nearby Pandy and bounce it onto her. She doesn't get expose fears against the attack, and so she's very vulnerable to them. Assuming the opposing player has access to them, of course. Vik can get blast damage via Hans (and he's really not worth taking generally as he's over-costed and relatively poor), potentially Misaki (although given the speed with which Pandora can move you're likely to find more use for Wind) and... Well, that's it. It probably goes without saying that with a few exceptions (Kade & Teddy) Pandy doesn't care about Df. Therefore, neither should you. Models with high Wp and Wd values are obviously the hardest for Pandy to deal with, especially if you can stop those sorrows from getting close enough to multiply the wounds caused by Pandy. True, but in a Vik crew the highest WP is 7, (matching Pandy), which means she only needs to equal on an opposed duel to win, so she will always have the advantage. When attacking her Misaki, Hamelin and Taelor can match her for WP so the slight advantage goes to them. Looking over the minions available to the Vics, I dunno, it looks like you'll be fighting an uphill battle against Pandy. Hamelin looks like a solid choice for his high Wp and effective immunity to Candy/Kade, and the Gunslinger would be a solid choice (as always ) for his shooting and control hand shenanigans. Agreed, Hamelin has always been useful (more-so before Obey was changed to non-master :puppy:)). Gunslinger is good, too, but best if used with Hamelin or Taelor to allow him to get some movement before a Rapid Fire. You best chance probably lies in ensuring you have enough soulstones to rush Pandy with the Vics. Definitely make sure you clear out the sorrows though - otherwise Pandy will transfer the lethal damage to a linked sorrow, pacify out of combat and deal an arse-load of wounds to the Vics while they're within 3" of any other sorrows. Although with Pandy starting with 5 SS and Vik with 0, it's tricky to get that advantage. The best I've done against her was with a combined Ronin / Vik rush, focussing on the Sorrows first. Although I ended up, due to positioning, having to split attention between Pandy and Kade (my fault :withstupi) and that blew it for me. One more thing - don't bump up the damage to the Vics swords (I forget the spell) unless you're ABSOLUTELY SURE that Pandy won't be targetting them with self-loathing afterwards. Utterly absolutely - Pandy can one-hit kill a Viktoria without breaking into a sweat. Good to hear more input, thanks :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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