WORST three masters in the game?

[Raintar]

What do you guys think?

I'd say Sonnia Criid, Som'er Teeth, Marcus

Edited December 26, 2009 by Raintar

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

That's crazy talk.

[Raintar]

Yeah made a typing mistake typing Perdita instead of Criid, it's really hard coming up with a worst three though because they all kick so much ass :X.

[Angus Khan]

What do you guys think?

I'd say Sonnia Criid, Som'er Teeth, Marcus

I think you're crazy... Sonnia and Marcus both are great, you just have to know how to run them right.

Som'er isn't always competitive, but in the right hands he is no worse than any other master.

(I guess what I'm saying is that there aren't any "bad" masters, only "bad" players who aren't playing them right. )

[Raintar]

Well the point is the thread is to say what you think, not berate others...

If you're saying that they are all completely balanced and completely on the same level of competitiveness then that's your opinion and i respect it.

[Justin]

What do you guys think?

I'd say Sonnia Criid, Som'er Teeth, Marcus

I haven't seen her played much, but I'm a huge fan of Sonnia. If my friend hadn't just picked her up, I would. I definitely wouldn't rank her as one of the weakest but, as I said, haven't seen her played much.

I would have to agree to an extent about Marcus and Sommer. Marcus is good...but there is a lot out there that just seems to be better. I've seen a few people running all beast arcanist lists with Rasputina instead of him. I think he'll get better as more beasts are printed, and this was probably anticipated.

Sommer I would also have to sort of agree with. He's great in certain situations and if you play him well he can do some really neat things, but his crew is so restricted that you just end up running into other situations where all you can do is hope for great luck so you can pull off a tie. That's never fun.

The balance in this game is foreign to me. Most games you would have to pay for your HQ/Master/Leader/what have you, just like any other trooper. The more expensive the master, the better, so your balance is in having less points to buy other models. Not so in this game, which puts us on the presumption that they're all equal...which will just never be so in any miniatures game. Nothing is totally equal and fair, I understand that. You have the powerful "top tier" lists to entice the competitive gamer and the stupidly difficult, silly list you use to teach your kid brother how to play. The lack of balance even serves a purpose to those ends.

In this game it seems like the soul stone cache is what is used to balance the masters a bit. As opposed to having to pay a higher point value for a beafyer master, a weaker master is granted a larger soul stone cache. While unique, it's still taking some getting used to for me. Because, for one, it presumes that all masters with zero soul stones are the most powerful ones stat/game play wise and in future additions, unless they print a master with a negative cache, the zero cache will be as powerful as a master gets, which is rather limiting. Where as in other games, you can always make them more expensive. Also, it doesn't strike me that the most powerful masters all have the lowest cache. Sommer, for example, who would make both of our lists, has a zero. So, I could be completely off on the cache being the balance for the different masters. Maybe the intent was entirely different and I'm not seeing it.

[Justin]

Well the point is the thread is to say what you think, not berate others...

If you're saying that they are all completely balanced and completely on the same level of competitiveness then that's your opinion and i respect it.

I don't think anybody was berating.

[thetang22]

Easy...the 3 Guild ladies....because they are from the Guild.

[Angus Khan]

Well the point is the thread is to say what you think, not berate others...

No offense meant, sorry you took it that way. Imagine the smiley as a "light and joking tone of voice"... No berating intended.

And yeah, I do believe that in the right hands, all the masters are balanced. (when they have their crews, of course... not all of them can be like Lilith)

[Isoulle]

Hmmm... Probably Teeth and Marcus. Yeah I know that's only two but besides them I think they're all quite good (Not perfectly equal, but much closer than most games). And frankly those two aren't bad per say, just a little below the curve.

[mattausten86]

if were talking about the worst to play against,for me it would definatley be pandora,ive played against lilth and wasnt that impressed,also going up against rasputina and viktoria soon.

cheers

matt

[greenstuff_gav]

(I guess what I'm saying is that there aren't any "bad" masters, only "bad" players who aren't playing them right. )

and those of us who are statistically unlucky who still can't win with the "awesome-broken" masters

[Hapless Peon]

I'm a little sad to see that Marcus is considered weak, he is seriously tempting me to be my second master after Seamus.

Is it the lack of beasts?

[baconsizzler]

I haven't played or played against most of the master but I do like all of the Neverborn caster and I tried playing McMorning and I don't know if it was me but I couldn't do much of anything. So from personal experience he is the worst.

[DireTrollJake]

Sonnia??!??!? Really? When I played guild, she was my go to. Being able to smash face with some crazy good fireballs, almost always putting out blasts, making flame walls....really?

And as to Marcus, he is just...kinda 1 dimensional. His options are limited right now, but his spells either make him faster, hit more, higher def, or attempt to take control of something for a turn. None of this really wins a game. His strong point IMO is speed, between Silurids, Snakes and Tigers, his whole list can run circles around most opp.

[ork56]

some people have said that Leveticus is complicated to get the hang of, but potentially devastating

personally I think Nico is quite poor as the cuddle on search action has limited his 'modus operandi' also the ongoing uncertainty on whether he can control+direct mindless zombies needs to be decided in his favour.

[nerdelemental]

Marcus is just too fragile. He can get tricky and fast and dishes out the pain, but has a hard time taking it. I guess I find him pretty one dimensional in play, too, which is odd considering how flexible his signature spells are. Even his army lists tend to get pretty predictable. He's not "bad" - just not too thrilling in comparrison to most of the others. However, with a ridiculous offense beside him, you can mitigate his perceived "weakness" of fragility. It gets hard to go after him if everything on your side of the table is a big threat. Most users here have gravitated to the Silurid/Snake super speed which is viable. I'd reccomend trying Joss, the Steamborg and other muscle.

[cerealkiller195]

i'm surprised nobody said ramos after so many threads were started on him about being hard to play.

[nilus]

I can't say any one master is the worst. They all have there play styles and overall depending on there strategies they can all put up a great fights.

Of course I could just sit here and complain about Lilith and Pandora, but that's just because those biatches be broken

Edit: Just a note that above was a joke. I don't feel Lilith or Pandora are broken, just very tough masters. Especially when run by the Neverborn players in my area.

[Justin]

I'm a little sad to see that Marcus is considered weak, he is seriously tempting me to be my second master after Seamus.

Is it the lack of beasts?

To an extent, I think so, yes. His whole draw is being the master you run when you're running a lot of beasts. But he doesn't buff them in any real way. All he does is allow you to take them out of faction. And, with the only two out of faction beasts (the silurid and the waldgeist, and no model exists for the waldgeist) unless silurids are terribly important to your list, Rasputina can do anything he does, but better.

Another problem is that, while other masters are fast in some way or another (or they have casting expert and a ton of spells, or they can discard something to become fast, etc) all that Marcus has is instinctual which allows him to use two zero actions in a turn. But when one of those actions is always going to be heart of the beast (which does nothing except boost his stats to where other combat oriented masters already start off) being able to cast two isn't any real advantage. Granted, you could get the ability to serpent strike or make a melee strike which adds to the actions he can take, but those are very situational, where as most other masters just have an additional straight up general AP for whatever they want. Or, as I said, are casting experts and are basically always going to cast at least one spell per turn.

Plus, he's just plain easy to kill. And, in this game, with eight soul stones to burn through with their incredibly varied uses, and only one model on the table that can use them, when that model goes down you tend to be screwed.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Justin

[karn987]

I don't think there are any masters that deserve the title "weak" by any means. They are all great models that can be extremely dangerous if played correctly. Plus with some masters not having the number of units yet to totally flush them out (Marcus is a good example of this) I wouldn't say any are really worse then the others.

If we were to go with, least impressive ( A more fitting idea I think). I would go with Marcus, Lady Justice, and big mamma Z.

They are cool in there own way, but I find them slightly underwhelming over-all. They have their high points and their low points, but I just haven't been terribly impressed with them over-all. Heck Lady justice is on there because she is very 1 dimensional in my eyes and sure she is hella dangerous, but still... just sorta meh.

[Justin]

I don't think there are any masters that deserve the title "weak" by any means. They are all great models that can be extremely dangerous if played correctly. Plus with some masters not having the number of units yet to totally flush them out (Marcus is a good example of this) I wouldn't say any are really worse then the others.

While it's true that people (especially on the internet) tend to over react and write off units as weak (or overpowered) when it was really their own poor playing skills that made them ineffective; it's also true that things will never be completely and totally balanced. No amount of play test can make a game perfect. And, when your master is free, that problem becomes even harder to balance. So, while I understand that it's no real fault of the company that there are imbalances, I have to acknowledge that they're there.

And, while I see Zoraida becoming much better with more models, I have my doubts about Marcus.

[Poko]

Lalochezia- I admit I'm rather new to the game, but should you really be using Marcus as CC character? he strikes me more as a support master, healing the beasties and such more than a straight up fighter. Keep him close by, heal the beasts who actually get damaged and occasionally try to take over enemy models seems like a way to go?

[Justin]

Lalochezia- I admit I'm rather new to the game, but should you really be using Marcus as CC character? he strikes me more as a support master, healing the beasties and such more than a straight up fighter. Keep him close by, heal the beasts who actually get damaged and occasionally try to take over enemy models seems like a way to go?

Well, he does have healing so you should use that, yes. And, if the enemy happens to have beasts then taking them over is always good, but most won't especially since they'll probably know they're about to play against Marcus. And turning an enemy into a beast and then taking it over is actually absurdly difficult to do -- in part rightfully so, since it's even better than obey if you manage to pull it off. But, since you can't usually pull it off you're left with only two options: healing and combat. And he's not all that fantastic at combat. And a master that does nothing except make two healing flips a turn is, well, not that fantastic.

Marcus is stunningly mediocre. And when he can just be replaced with Rasputina, well...

[The Happy Anarchist]

Is he really that bad? He is clearly not Lady J or Lilith good, but I think you are underestimating the 0 actions, and his Wild Heart spell.

Here is how I would run a melee Marcus turn. Requires nothing but a 3 or higher of Tomes for specific cards.

0 Action Wild Heart - cheat or flip the tomes. 3 effects

Bear +2 Dmg Eagle Plus flip on attacks and Tiger/Serpent depending on if you need to charge. Alternatively, if going up against someone more dangerous that you can't kill in one turn then then Bear, Eagle, Fox and save the other 0 action for stare down.

Against the more vulnerable target you are getting 3 attacks with plus flips to hit and 3/4/6 damage which is enough to kill most targets, especially with some cheating. One will even have a + damage flip. Against tougher targets you get 2 attacks with plus flips at 3/4/6 damage or 1 charge and attack and they are going to be minus to all flips while you are Def 7.

That isn't bad, particularly for a more casting oriented model that will be healing up, dodging around, howling if Harmless/Terrify/Pandora is a problem.

I'm not saying he is all that great, though more combos are going to be great. One thing I have seen is that he only really offers Howl & Primal Flame to support his own beasts, and Defend Me for them to support him. This means he doesn't need to go beast heavy. You can just as easily have a few key beasts and something like Joss for laying down beats.

Also, he is probably the best Arcanist in the game for certain objectives. Not only can his beasts jump all over the world, but he can too with Hare.

As for OP, Zoraida feels a little lost for me, and Som'er seems to have problems with certain lists. Ramos seems like he requires a fair bit of luck, and alot depends on what cards you draw/flip. More so than other masters.