Ronin are TOO broken

[Raintar]

Ronin

Wk/Cg 4/6 Ht 2 Wp 5 CA 4 Df 5 Wd 6

Diasho R 2 Cb 5Mask 2/3/5

Pistol R 10 Cb 4 2/3/4

Talents

Always for hire

Drifter

Harmless

Hard to kill

Mobile- ignores severe terrain penalties

Weapon Diasho- Ignores Armor, Damage Flips get +1

Actions

+1 Melee Expert

1 Defensive +3 Defense

1 Run Through Push this model to its Cg. This model may push to make one Diasho Strike. Continue the push after resolving the strike

all Seppuku Sac this Model Gain two Soulstones

Triggers

Cb Mask (Always have it) Next Target After Damaging to defender with a Diasho strike push this model 4" in any direction

Ok, let's start with its attack, it has +1 flip to damage and ignores armor, ok that's pretty good base for a 5 cost guy. Now to have a trigger so that every time you attack you can run away. Add in Melee expert so now you have a pretty cost effective unit already for 5 soulstones, it gets worse...

Run through allows you to move your charge base for a 1 action effectively making your walk action completely obsolete. Oh yeah, and by the way, this move isn't a move, it's a PUSH, so I can go through terrain, and units and ignore Disengage as I please. So I can push in, and attack, melee expert and then I can attack and push away as quickly as I came and if I damage them, even better, can push further away.

Your Ronin also have 6 Wounds and Hard to kill. 5 damage is rather hard to accomplish so mathematically it'll take usually 3 hits to die against most units which is ALOT to do reliably when you think about it. It can only die to a single charge if they have melee expert and flip 5 damage on the charge, possible but only a few models can do it. The point is that they are hard to kill, which makes the following strategy alot better.

When you play Ronin alot you figure out how they work and the best way to use them. This is what makes Ronin so good because they have a huge strike range get all 3 attacks from their strike range, and then they can either tie up units in close combat, or run away as quickly as they came, all while dishing out their 3 attacks. Or you can go for the fun approach and play kill the master because its not hard when you ignore Disengage effects and get three attacks from 8" away with a guy that is low enough points to spam.

There is nothing in the game that can compete with it at its cost, and it is not skillful at all when all you do is take Victoria and as many Ronin as you possibly can and consistently win games.

Edit: Changed because I messed up the numbers, sorry all!

Edited December 19, 2009 by Raintar

[Massaen]

I think your MASSIVELY overstating how good they are. Any decent DF target (6 or more) will be tough for the ronin to do what you describe. You could easily charge and get stuck! Plus when you charge you loose harmless.

Not sure how you count the run though as a charge since no where in the entry does it say this... you just use the Charge range for the push.

Secondly, if your 14" away from a target, how do you get 3 strikes??? it takes your 2AP to get the first off and then melee expert but even with the 4" push after your woefully exposed. SO in the 14" scenario you end up 4" max away from the enemy, not 14".

Thirdly, even with hard to kill, DF5 and 6 woulds is easy for most masters or dedicated attault models.

I would LOVE to face your roni/Vik list with lilith and the neverborn or with Perdita and the guild... easy wins for me i would bet!

[Wombats]

Wow. Did you mean to post this in a counterstrike forum?

Maybe play a bit more before you deploy the wall of text.

[Omadon]

I'm with massen in the confused department. How do they get three attacks at 14 inches?

Also, sure - they sound solid on paper, but nobody really cares about harmless, and 5 def is really easy to hit. Hard to Kill just lets them fill their roll as amazing glass cannon without being twoshotted at the drop of a hat.

[nilus]

it's a PUSH, so I can go through terrain, and units and Disengage as you please.

Push does not ignore terrain or units. It just does not set off disengage strikes

[Boys in Blue]

Push does not ignore terrain or units. It just does not set off disengage strikes

Some interpret that since a push "is not considered to be moving", movement penalties do not apply.

[Ashkettle]

I'm looking at those stats and comparing them to my Punk Zombies. I'll keep the zombies. Heck, if I'm playing Nico, it just gets uglier.

Ronin are decent, to be sure. They aren't all that. They certainly aren't broken.

[Raintar]

Run Through is ONE ACTION, push 6" and make an attack interrupting that push, so at the very end, you attack. Then you have melee expert attack. Then you use run through again as a second action to run through backwards interrupting the push at the very beginning when you are next to them then continuing pushing your Cg away from them with Run Through. Then you get the trigger as well if you activate it and this is all with +1 damage flip and ignoring armor base.

Make extensive use of run through it's a one action charge (that you don't get an extra flip for) that takes the place of walking.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Raintar

[The Happy Anarchist]

Wow, I would think Ronin are really broken if I blatantly ignored the rules and had trouble with math as well.

14" you say? I assume you mean Run Through, Run Through 2" reach? Oh wait, each Run Through is a 1 action. That means one chop and one melee expert hit and then 4" away, unless you think models get 4 actions every turn.

And Run Through giving +2 flips? Absolutely not. It pushes you your Charge, it is not a charge. Stampede is an example of an ability like Run Through that gives the charge bonus flip. Run Through does not, so you don't get that extra flip.

Push wording is weird. It says "move a model x inches" but, and this is the key, it is the model that is not considered moving when you push it. The sentence "A pushed model is not considered to be moving" means that the model itself isn't counted as moving, for game effects like disengaging or maybe something that says if model x moves it takes a damage or some effect like that. Push would not trigger. However, movement does take place and thus does not ignore terrain or models, which is my reading of it. Definitely needs some errata to clear that up.

So we have a model with a 14" threat range for 2 attacks with one plus damage flip each (and a combat value of 5, which isn't autohitting by any means) and if you damage the second one you can bounce 4" back.

So I really hope you haven't "played Ronin alot" like this or you have been cheating or whoever has been playing against you has been cheating.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Run Through is ONE ACTION, push 12" and make an attack interrupting that push, so at the very end, you attack.

Read the freaking ability man! Open your book now and do it.

Run Through -Push this model up to its Cg. (That is 6", not 12". Don't know why you think it is 12")

Why do you think it is a 12" push when the model's Cg is only 6". Also, it is not a charge at all.

Have you played the Ronin a lot? You are badly misreading this rule in just about every conceivable way you can.

[Raintar]

WOW I EPICLY FAIL MATH INDEED Strike range is 8 not 14, fail fail fail. And it's only one flip at all times. So fail, I'm changing my original post.... I still think it's busted I just put in the wrong numbers epic fail on my part. Thanks Happy Anarchist for making me realize the numbers mistake I made.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Raintar

[Omadon]

This thead is deeply confusing =\

On a sidenote. Whenever I play them with the victorias, I always get stuck between keeping them back as a spare vic, or throwing them at something at high velocity. I find their mediocre CB kindof holds them back alot, unless they're up against something with even worse DF.

[Massaen]

WOW I EPICLY FAIL MATH INDEED Strike range is 8 not 14, fail fail fail. And it's only one flip at all times. So fail, I'm changing my original post.... I still think it's busted I just put in the wrong numbers epic fail on my part. Thanks Happy Anarchist for making me realize the numbers mistake I made.

Can you give more info on why you think its busted???

Its a good ability, no doubt, but its far from the unstoppable awesomeness that you make out. It leaves them dangerously exposed and only 4" away from the enemy. Interestingly, i would rather stay within 2" to make it harder for people to shoot me.

[Raintar]

Because they can Run Through in from 8" away get three total attacks that all get +1 flip and ignore armor then they can in those three attacks push 6" away again against melee based opponents, or stick it against shooting guys who aren't so good up close. They also count as pushing so Disengaging rules don't mean anything and so they can use their trigger with Run Through to pick off single models. Add in Hard to Kill with 6 Wounds means that it will usually take 3 good hits (well...2 good hits) to kill them. Get all this for a spammable 5 SS.

[newsun]

Have you even looked at all the minions in the game? How about just a few that cost about the same from different factions?

Death Marshals = 4

Francisco = 5

Guild Guard = 4

Witchling Stalkers = 4

Canin Remains x 2 = 4

Crooked Man = 4

Punk Zombies = 5

Belle = 4

I could go on, though that is just from the first two factions, all good solid models that dish about the same amount of pain for the same price or less than Ronin. I do think they are a good model and great for the Victoria's as they are cheap for mercs.

How many games have you played by the way?

[Massaen]

i was only going to mention the punk zombie and the death marshal but hey - the above list works!

The limiting thing you may have forgotten is their average CB of 5. This means your unlikely to take on anything heavy and anything you can take on reliably is likely to be big, scary and with many wounds...

[Raintar]

Yeah, and most of those are easy pickin's. I'll give some examples of why since saying what they can do isn't enough evidence for people to visualize it.

Death Marshall DM vs Ronin R

Moving within 11-14" is ideal if you are the Ronin player because it's just out of range of the gun range. DM will not overcommit because it will be an easy target. DM has the option of undercommitting but he will have to fight the Ronin eventually leading eventually to a circle of actions eventually getting to the point where he overcommits or is in the 11-14" range because he will run out of room.

For all intents and purposes either way it's going to happen it's going to come down to this:

Start 11-14"

DM first: Move, Shoot at Harmless; Net damage Cb5/Df5 +1 dmg trigger, most likely 3 dmg

R: Run Through, Run Through, Melee Expert, Net damage Cb 5/Df4

2 Attacks +1/-1 cancel out, most likely 4 dmg

Advantage: Ronin with better damage, better hit % and Harmless

Ronin first: Run Through, Run Through, Melee Expert (use push to move 2" away rather then 1"); Net damage Cb 5/Df4

2 Attacks +1/-1 cancel out, most likely 4 dmg

DM: Move (I'm out of range!), Attack Cb5/5 +1 damage, most likely 3 damage

Advantage: Ronin, better damage, better hit %

Both start 2" (The Ronin can move up to it's 2" range every activation)

DM First: Move (I'm out of range!), Attack Cb5/5 +1 damage, most likely 3 damage

Ronin: 3 attacks moving back to 2", Cb 5/4 most likely 6 damage

Advantage: Ronin, better damage, better hit %

I used the Death Marshall as an example because it's a pretty well rounded unit and has Hard to Wound which kind of gives it a chance, whereas a unit like Guild Guard will have an alot less favorable matchup against it because the Ronin ignores armor and they doesn't have Hard to Wound.

But regardless of how good the model is up close and how many attacks it gets its main advantage is speed being able to push 12" in a turn and make 2 decent attacks and possibly even further using its trigger.

While it may not strong enough to take down a Steamborg by itself, it has the speed to pick off units that cost more then it with little effort and the power to tackle most melee dedicated units it's point cost in melee range as well.

As per your question, I've played alot of games, I started out with Rasuptina who I thought was kinda boring and bland at first, then I moved onto Marcus and played alot of different lists with him with Silurids, Molemen and the like. Then I started playing Leveticus with Killjoy and Bad Juju which was pretty cool, then I moved onto Lilith and Pandora, Lilith was ok but Pandora was absolute gold. After that I played Lady Justice and started liking Rasputina again, then I moved on to Ramos who is ONLY good with Rusty Alyce lol and recently I've been trying out Viktoria with Ronin who have been pretty impressive.

I have to say the other units that are top-notch discarding Ronin and Totems are Joss, the Steampunk Arachnid Swarm, Rusty Alyce (if you can use her!), Samael Hopkins, Doppleganger, Killjoy (if you have a good means of getting him out), and Canine Remains. Units that I haven't played against that I could also see being good are the Belles, Bete Noire.

Sure there are many good units that aren't on this list but these are the ones that in my opinion are the best. Most of these are #1 pick-off targets for the Ronin especially Rusty Alyce, Hopkins (tying him up is important!), the annoying Doppleganger, and the Canines.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Raintar

[nilus]

Start 11-14"

DM first: Move, Shoot at Harmless; Net damage Cb5/Df5 +1 dmg trigger, most likely 3 dmg

R: Run Through, Run Through, Melee Expert, Net damage Cb 5/Df4

2 Attacks +1/-1 cancel out, most likely 4 dmg

Advantage: Ronin with better damage, better hit % and Harmless

Thats only one set of activations each and neither is dead. Really who wins that fight is determined by initiative the next turn. If the DM player wins he just boxes the Ronin, if the Ronin wins he attacks the DM again and if the Ronin runs away the DM gets his slow to die shot off, It won't kill him(because of hard to kill), but it brings him down to one wound.

As far as I see it they are pretty much an even match. Personally I think or 5 points the DM's are one of the best buys in the game. Good range with a critical trigger makes them deadly. Especially in groups of two or three.

[TheBugKing]

Also note that looking at models in a vacuum is rather silly. You need to look at the model in the lens of the build of your Crew. Most of the Victoria centric models are simply good stand alone models. There is very little synergy in their lists.

Most other lists have either subtle synergies or blatant synergies that increase their on table effectiveness.

[Raintar]

That view is the only way to compare models 1v1 granted there are MANY factors that could completely influence a fight like this (Red Jokers, Black Jokers, going twice initiative flips, the list goes on).

But the thing is that you need to take a step back and visualize what the unit can do and it's application in the game, this is the goal here. Instead of giving me a list of factors of things that could happen in game that can be made for any unit.

Chances are with my Ronin I wouldn't go after your Death Marshalls and I would much rather go after a bigger guy such as the Samael Hopkins or Nino Ortega if you have either of those or something that is just plain bad in melee like the Austringer. My speed allows me to pick my targets because I can dance through your lines using Run Through.

With your big guys tied up I can get the rest of my list into the fight because your big guys are tied up in melee against my Ronin and are forced to fight in close combat rather than shoot.

[Fool]

I would welcome you to come to gen con, and prove your list. I'm sure that there will be a tournament there. Or you could go to temple con if you are closer to that.

I disagree with the ronin against Dm also. Considering no other models on the board and no wounds. DM moves into range hits for 3 damage min. Then ronin does 4 damage (your numbers) Next turn 50% of the time DM goes first and kills the ronin. 50% of the time ronin goes first and kills the DM, who then gets to attack the ronin again (but does not kill him)

50/50 odds seems pretty even to me.

[karn987]

Raintar... I'm no longer really sure what your point is on this topic...

If your still on about how over powered you think they are... they aren't really. They are 5 points, the same as the Slurid, another very scary model.

Honestly I think you should just concede your point Raintar, it's no longer coming across very well and vacuum theory never works. I don't see anything of any real value coming out of this thread any more.

[nilus]

Well everyone is entitled to there own opinions. Personally I don't see them as being a problem. The real test is how they do in competitive play. Games only been out a few months(although almost every Tourney announced here has had rules to allow proxies of unreleased models) but I am not hearing about a huge number of Victoria Crew wins so I am guessing its probably okay.

Edit: Also its worth mentioning that all we are really talking about here is raw killing power. I know some people are getting tired of hearing this but the game is about completing your Strategy and Schemes. Which doesn't always mean kill the other guys crew completely.

Edited December 21, 2009 by nilus

[newsun]

Edit: Also its worth mentioning that all we are really talking about here is raw killing power. I know some people are getting tired of hearing this but the game is about completing your Strategy and Schemes. Which doesn't always mean kill the other guys crew completely.

Yup, sometimes it involves never engaging your enemy at all. And there are many models that offer support rather than killing power.

[Raintar]

I understand that I'm probably the only one in this thread who's played with and against the unit based on what I've seen, but I'm letting this thread die, I'm not wasting my time telling newbies how to play.