New to Malifaux, good starter list?

[Nutcase168]

Ok, since I've started this great game I've done a bunch of reading and I want to really try Ramos out. What would be a good starting 30SS or 25SS list? Is the box about all I need maybe adding the brass arachnid? Or is there a better master to learn the game with?

[Wendigo]

The Box itself is 28 Soulstones strong, so the Brass arachnid should put you to 30 perfectly I think.

[Caligula]

I think starter vs. starter is a great way to learn the game, just me though! At my LGS we are still using our starters, we are just breaking into designing new crews. The only hold is the models, they are sold out everywhere so it can be hard to get them at times!

[Nutcase168]

I will likely try my first few games with just the starter. But was curious what would good things to pick up to expand to 35 SS.

I just like Ramos and the horde of spiders. Reminds me on an intro bit for ATHF with Dr. Weird where he says "unleash the phone spiders!" and then sends a bunch of little robots through the phone line to a telemarketer.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Nutcase168

[Caligula]

The Steam Arachnids remind me a little bit of the movie Runaway with Tom Selleck, about the type-writer like spiders with poison tipped needles for mouths, and the smart bullets.

[Mort]

The Steam Arachnids remind me a little bit of the movie Runaway with Tom Selleck, about the type-writer like spiders with poison tipped needles for mouths, and the smart bullets.

That was the one with Gene Simmons as the bad guy, wasn't it?

Anyway, for some reason when I read about Ramos, I instantly think Dr. Loveless from the Wild Wild West movie.

-Mort

[Caligula]

I can see that. Yeah, Gene Simmons wasthe bad guy I believe in Runaway. I haven't seen it in a few years, I remember the construction sight with all the spiders crawling around, and one of the heat seeking smart bullets going through some pipes.

I need to re-watch that.

What are some other characters that remind you of other actors?

[Vitzh]

I would suggest learning the game with any other master.

[Haight]

I would suggest learning the game with any other master.

Which is fair, because you tried him and didn't like him.

Conversely there are many, many people on here who have had a great deal of success and fun with Ramos. It might be that he simply wasn't for you, but may be for someone else. Your post comes off negative. *shrug*

It's cool that you don't like him, but my question is... what good does it do to drop into every thread on Ramos and reiterate your dislike for him nebulously with no backup, opening up zero potential for debate on the topic?

[Vitzh]

The question asked was is there a better master then Ramos to learn the game with and I responded with a neutral remark. I didn't really think going into the issues with him would be appropriate for this thread. Advice I have seen from other people who do like Ramos even says he is a difficult master to play.

Poisoning the well in the manner you have done feels far more damaging towards actual discussion then anything I have said in this thread. The only place I have posted negatively about Ramos is the thread I started about him. Honestly I didn't like how discussion there was killed either.

[Pavic]

NO! Don't fall in with the machine! Join the Ice side!

Ok, joking aside, I have to say that all three of the Arcanists masters are difficult to use. Ramos and Rasputina's low speed and defense, as well as the way their various abilities work, make them difficult to use effectively. Marcus does not suffer from this difficulty, but learning how to effectively use Wild Heart can be difficult. Just remember, no matter what Arcanists you go with, you will EARN your victories, unlike those point and shoot guild bastards.

Finally about your list....well, I can't comment on that. I am anti-Ramos. Who wants to use a bunch of mechanical spiders when you can use big snakes or ice daemons? I mean, come one, which of these options sounds cooler to you?

[hausdorff space]

Finally about your list....well, I can't comment on that. I am anti-Ramos. Who wants to use a bunch of mechanical spiders when you can use big snakes or ice daemons? I mean, come one, which of these options sounds cooler to you?

Spiders?

[Angus Khan]

Spiders?

Definitely.

Mechanical spiders FTW!

[Pavic]

Spiders?

Definitely.

Mechanical spiders FTW!

:lame:

[Angus Khan]

:lame:

OK... maybe I'm a little biased considering I own almost two dozen of the little guys...

[Haight]

The question asked was is there a better master then Ramos to learn the game with and I responded with a neutral remark. I didn't really think going into the issues with him would be appropriate for this thread. Advice I have seen from other people who do like Ramos even says he is a difficult master to play.

Poisoning the well in the manner you have done feels far more damaging towards actual discussion then anything I have said in this thread. The only place I have posted negatively about Ramos is the thread I started about him. Honestly I didn't like how discussion there was killed either.

I'm not "poisoning the well" (little melodramatic, eh?), but asking an honest question.

It does no one any good to drop into a thread and say a one liner with no backup. You present no data, no stats, no commentary. You might as well have posted "I don't like Ramos." for all the tactical discussion it was going to generate.

My question was honest, and I thought my appraisal was fair (that it was okay / fair / cool that you didn't like him) - i didn't flame you. I just asked what the point was behind nebulous questions that don't engage others. I would have been much more interested in reading your thoughts as to WHY ramos isn't a good master to start the game with (and mind you, this is coming from someone who started with Leveticus and Ramos at the same time).

I also don't get the logic behind you saying you didn't feel it "appropriate"... okay, so it's appropriate to say "I suggest learning the game with another master", but didn't feel it was appropriate to list any reasons why (positive or negative)?

Forums are about discussion. If we phrase our discourse and diction in such a way that limits, rather than promotes, (via vagueness, inflammation, etc), then it gets us nowhere. Nebulous comments don't engage. If your comments don't engage, then no one listens. If no one listens to your comments - why bother posting on a forum ?

I'd actually really like to hear why you think Ramos isn't the best caster to pick up.

[eruletho]

I've only played 2 games of MF, one as 'Tina and one as Ramos. The 'Tina game was a 4 way FFA where I brought her, the tiger, 2 gamin, a spider, and a convict gunslinger. 'Tina singlehandedly destroyed the guild's executioner usining only a 0 cast and a 1 cast, and blew away one of the death marshalls flanking it as well before crashing hard. She has intense offensive ability, but once she engages, you better hope initiative goes your way and she can kill a few things before she drops. My other game was the 3v3 I posted about in the battle reports section. While I played Ramos, he didn't really do anything. The first 4 rounds he shat out spiders, and after that he was too far back to do anything. However, my 3 swarms were great support for the steamborg, although I only took down one thing that game. Overall, of the 5 factions, I think the arcanists are the most diverse by far, each with their own play styles. Marcus seems like be like Justice, leading the charge to melee combat, where Ramos meets or exceeds the army production and support of ressurectionists and 'Tina could probable out-spell most of the other caster masters. This whole faction is really cool though. Overall I think I prefer 'Tina and her ice thingies above Ramos.

[Nutcase168]

Definitely.

Mechanical spiders FTW!

Ramos is Dr. Weird (or in this case Wyrd)of Malifuax. Unleash the Steampunk Spiders!

On a more tactical notes I've played 3 games with him so far, all around the starter box level. It is a bit of an up-hill battle for him facing more models and wounds, and having less attacks unless you spread out the swarms. I think as I go to larger SS games and Ramos can fill his crew out more he will be stronger. In some ways to get the most out of him you need the brass arachnid for stoke.

[Vitzh]

Coming into a discussion with the forum equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife?" isn't really conducive to discussion either. There is a word for people who like asking such misleading questions: Republicans!

I dont think its appropriate posting overly negative things about the master in question and the game in a thread for potential new players. Part of it is not wanting to ruin their good time, and they may never run into the same problems I have with Ramos. It also felt like the OP was asking more for a poll of opinions than an actual discussion.

Where to begin on Ramos? His soul stone count seems to indicate that he should be a rather powerful master. Yet he suffers in terms of his stats, spell list, and in scenarios.

Stat wise he is only blessed with a high CA. His movement and combat are both low. His Def of 2 is rather abysmal. He does have armor to try to make up for this but that low of a Def mean far too many attacks hit home easily and often for extra damage.

Ramos is clearly supposed to be a spellcaster. Yet over half of his spells require an extra suite to be cast successfully, and often high values in those suites. His totem compounds this problem by requiring an even higher value in the same suite. Two of the spells with suite requirements also require a wreck marker. His spells that aren't suite dependent are also under performers. His attack spell scales poorly compared to other masters attack spells, and has a very situational bonus. A required defensive spell suffers from ending at the end of the turn instead of lasting till his next activation. This provides a flicker of lost defense that is controlled solely by initiative.

Malifaux is really a game about scenarios. As you determine which scenario you are playing in a game before you even pick your faction or build a list the master used should match the scenario. The game really supports having a wide collection, and not specializing in one master in this way. I have found Ramos is a poor choice for any scenario, and only really supports other poor choices for scenario play.

In actual play he never felt like he really did much every turn compared to other masters. The suite requirements make it very difficult to do multiple signature spells per turn, and sometimes impossible to do any. Overall it feels like you can make him work by taking an excessive amount of soul stones. They need to be used for both defense, and for casting spells. This makes him a very expensive Master to play for fairly poor results, doubly so in scenarios. He really feels very close to bottom tier in a game with huge differences in power level.

Its also annoying that models he summons haven't been released yet and don't look like they will be released for quite some time. Leveticus(the other master I have as well) suffers from this too, as do others.

[Nutcase168]

I dont think its appropriate posting overly negative things about the master in question and the game in a thread for potential new players. Part of it is not wanting to ruin their good time, and they may never run into the same problems I have with Ramos. It also felt like the OP was asking more for a poll of opinions than an actual discussion.

Where to begin on Ramos? His soul stone count seems to indicate that he should be a rather powerful master. Yet he suffers in terms of his stats, spell list, and in scenarios.

Stat wise he is only blessed with a high CA. His movement and combat are both low. His Def of 2 is rather abysmal. He does have armor to try to make up for this but that low of a Def mean far too many attacks hit home easily and often for extra damage.

Ramos is clearly supposed to be a spellcaster. Yet over half of his spells require an extra suite to be cast successfully, and often high values in those suites. His totem compounds this problem by requiring an even higher value in the same suite. Two of the spells with suite requirements also require a wreck marker. His spells that aren't suite dependent are also under performers. His attack spell scales poorly compared to other masters attack spells, and has a very situational bonus. A required defensive spell suffers from ending at the end of the turn instead of lasting till his next activation. This provides a flicker of lost defense that is controlled solely by initiative.

Malifaux is really a game about scenarios. As you determine which scenario you are playing in a game before you even pick your faction or build a list the master used should match the scenario. The game really supports having a wide collection, and not specializing in one master in this way. I have found Ramos is a poor choice for any scenario, and only really supports other poor choices for scenario play.

In actual play he never felt like he really did much every turn compared to other masters. The suite requirements make it very difficult to do multiple signature spells per turn, and sometimes impossible to do any. Overall it feels like you can make him work by taking an excessive amount of soul stones. They need to be used for both defense, and for casting spells. This makes him a very expensive Master to play for fairly poor results, doubly so in scenarios. He really feels very close to bottom tier in a game with huge differences in power level.

Its also annoying that models he summons haven't been released yet and don't look like they will be released for quite some time. Leveticus(the other master I have as well) suffers from this too, as do others.

Political incorrectness aside, I was hoping for more discussion than polling. I find polling hard to assess due to the different play styles of the players out there.

I have found his casting requirements to be the hardest part, needing 7+ tomes to get his better spells off. At the same time he can create his own scrap token and still summon a spider in one turn.

I'm finding he really needs the right crew around him and a few extra soul stones but the amount of direct damage he can do is very high.

And the arachnids are out, you buy a swarm blister and small bases and assemble them separately.