Are Viks and Nexus at a (slight) disadvantage after the FAQ?

[Maladroit]

So the FAQ clarified that Master titles are selected at Step G, however this isn't really an option for Viks and Nexus. If I am reading it correctly, OG Viks choose one Vik to be the leader then the second Viktoria is chosen and revealed in step F when additional masters are chosen. Second Vik is a second master after all. This means that the player is effectively choosing and revealing which Vik before their opponent has chosen their master title or crew. Same for Nexus "one of Many", the other 2 Nexus masters are chosen in Step F and hence the title is revealed. So rules question - is this correct? Is there an additional problem that you cannot choose additional Nexus masters until after you have selected a title - which breaks the crew hiring process?

I'm not sure if this is game breaking but it does not quite sit right with me . . . . I mean it was already kind of the case already in terms of crew selection, but now the opponent gets the added bonus of tailoring their master title as well with that extra knowledge.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Maladroit said:

So the FAQ clarified that Master titles are selected at Step G, however this isn't really an option for Viks and Nexus. If I am reading it correctly, OG Viks choose one Vik to be the leader then the second Viktoria is chosen and revealed in step F when additional masters are chosen.

Your premise is that the Outcast player is proceeding as follows:

* Declare as Viktoria Chambers

* In spite of the fact that they have not chosen a title yet, declare Viktoria Chambers as a second master, in spite of the fact that doing so violates the hiring model limits.  (Because the rule allowing them to do so is on a model they haven't chosen yet!)

instead of the more practical approach:  The rules which allow a second copy of a master to be hired when the model of that name and title are the leader are an exception to the sequence.

?

Your disadvantage scenario isn't a valid start of the game sequence, as far as I can tell.

 

 

[Maladroit]

3 hours ago, solkan said:

Your premise is that the Outcast player is proceeding as follows:

* Declare as Viktoria Chambers

* In spite of the fact that they have not chosen a title yet, declare Viktoria Chambers as a second master, in spite of the fact that doing so violates the hiring model limits.  (Because the rule allowing them to do so is on a model they haven't chosen yet!)

instead of the more practical approach:  The rules which allow a second copy of a master to be hired when the model of that name and title are the leader are an exception to the sequence.

?

Your disadvantage scenario isn't a valid start of the game sequence, as far as I can tell.

 

 

I agree with the practical problem, but I guess my interpretation of what is written is first Vik is the leader and second Vik is a second master so must be chosen and declared during Step F. I have not seen any exception written anywhere, but would be more than happy if it exists. Prior to the FAQ I was choosing the master title when the original master was declared (during step E) because of this exact reason. 

"* In spite of the fact that they have not chosen a title yet, declare Viktoria Chambers as a second master, in spite of the fact that doing so violates the hiring model limits.  (Because the rule allowing them to do so is on a model they haven't chosen yet!)"

As I read it this is incorrect, you do not hire the second master during Step F, you only have to declare that you are choosing to hire a second master during this step. You hire the second master during Step G, which would make their hiring perfectly legal as you now have legally chosen your first master. You only choose and declare additional masters during Step F, you Hire them in Step G.

From the digital rule book - end of Step F.

"When hiring Crews (step G), each player that chose to hire an additional Master must hire those chosen Masters. (including the cost of 1 additional Soulstone to hire.)"

 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

This is covered in the last paragraph in step G. The Master station is cited in the list of being able to hire multiple based on the number after their station. So masters follow the same rules as any other model in this regard without needing to declare the same master twice in two different steps

[Maladroit]

30 minutes ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

This is covered in the last paragraph in step G. The Master station is cited in the list of being able to hire multiple based on the number after their station. So masters follow the same rules as any other model in this regard without needing to declare the same master twice in two different steps

Maybe you are correct here, I'm not sure I see it that way for the leader step, which I believe is always a single model - afaik you only have a single leader model regardless of how many of that type of master you hire. I'm pretty certain that my interpretation isn't what was intended, but at the moment it's the best interpretation I can manage of RAW. 

If step F read:

"After Leaders are revealed, each player may secretly choose whether or not to hire any masters with a different name to their chosen leader into their Crew." 

I'd be very happy it was nice and clear and I'd be happy that it was fair too.

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

* In spite of the fact that they have not chosen a title yet, declare Viktoria Chambers as a second master, in spite of the fact that doing so violates the hiring model limits.  (Because the rule allowing them to do so is on a model they haven't chosen yet!)

Viktoria and One of Many aren't what let you hire their other models, they just let you hire them at cost 0.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

8 hours ago, Maladroit said:

Maybe you are correct here, I'm not sure I see it that way for the leader step, which I believe is always a single model - afaik you only have a single leader model regardless of how many of that type of master you hire. I'm pretty certain that my interpretation isn't what was intended, but at the moment it's the best interpretation I can manage of RAW. 

A leader is always a single model, I wasn’t trying to say otherwise.  It’s that the card says “Master (X)” that lets you hire multiple Viktoria/Nexus during step G, but only one is your leader. 

[solkan]

My apologies, I forgot which version of the working text had been approved.  😕

First, let me express my sincere skepticism on the "technically an additional master" point.

Second, I'd like to point out that game start up process pretty much relies on the fact that there's no possibility or need to do any backtracking.  At each step, the players do something, it gets locked in, and you can demonstrate that it's correct.

Step E:  Both players choose a faction and a leader (but do NOT choose their leader's title.  That title is chosen in Step G).

Step F:  Both players choose which and then reveal which additional Masters will be hired into their crew.  Repeat the very important point:  The crew's leader model has not yet been chosen, because no title has been committed to yet.  Thus, in Step F it is impossible for a player to assert that they will be hiring additional copies of their leader.

Both players know how many soul stones the game size is, if either player makes an invalid or ridiculous statement concerning hiring, the game doesn't need to proceed until the error is corrected.  (If the error is missed, it becomes immediately obvious in the Hiring Crew stage, and you get kicked back to Step F anyway.)

As an additional point, if one of the crews has been declared with Nexus or Victoria Chambers as the leader (or some other future model with Master (X) or Henchman (X) version), it is not possible make the statement "I will hire Nexus as an additional Master" because there's no way to prove it.  In the simple demonstration:

• Game size 50 SS.
• Declare Faction Outcasts
• Declare Faction Victoria Chambers
• Declare Additional Masters Victoria Chambers, Hamelin, Jack Daw, Leveticus.
  • What's the total cost of models declared?  Hamelin = 16.  Jack Daw = 16.  Leveticus = 16.
  • "Your crew is valid if you're going to choose untitled Victoria Chambers in the future" is an invalid answer to the question "Is this okay?"

(Note:  There's a prohibition against hiring two models with different titles, but, again, you haven't chosen your leader's title yet.  And the game rules absolutely do not believe in "I promise to make a valid choice for this in the future." as the answer to existential dilemma.)

And there's also the matter that the guy that wrote the app disagrees with the whole idea.  😕

So, yeah.  No.

 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

As an additional point, if one of the crews has been declared with Nexus or Victoria Chambers as the leader (or some other future model with Master (X) or Henchman (X) version), it is not possible make the statement "I will hire Nexus as an additional Master" because there's no way to prove it.  In the simple demonstration:

• Game size 50 SS.
• Declare Faction Outcasts
• Declare Faction Victoria Chambers
• Declare Additional Masters Victoria Chambers, Hamelin, Jack Daw, Leveticus.
  • What's the total cost of models declared?  Hamelin = 16.  Jack Daw = 16.  Leveticus = 16.
  • "Your crew is valid if you're going to choose untitled Victoria Chambers in the future" is an invalid answer to the question "Is this okay?"

 

 

This crew build would be illegal, since any two of those additional masters (excluding Viktoria) would be over the “less than half” restriction placed on additional masters. 

Aside from that, I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said. 

[Maladroit]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

My apologies, I forgot which version of the working text had been approved.  😕

First, let me express my sincere skepticism on the "technically an additional master" point.

 

 

That's fair - I guess I will just read Step F as selecting a "different master" and all is as intended - and treats those two crews in the same way as any other, which is a fairer outcome. Thanks for the responses everyone.