Expert Marksmen and Mimic

[Da Git]

I asked this question in the Guild chat and couldn't get a definitive answer, so I thought I would put it here.

If you give a model Expert Marksmen and then another model mimics its gun, do they also get to use the armour piercing trigger from the upgrade?

To me, it's kind of like a chain.

1. Expert marksmen says that this models guns gain the trigger
2. Mimic says it treats the action (and it's triggers) as on this models cards

So the question is does the trigger the gun gains become one of "the gun's" triggers and is therefore mimicked???

Cheers!

[solkan]

The instructions on upgrades are that they modify the model when the upgrade is attached (and implicitly undo their changes when removed):

Quote

This section explains how the Upgrade modifies the model to which it is Attached.

in contrast to the description of abilities:

Quote

Models have Abilities that change how they interact with the rules, such as making the model difficult to damage or changing how it moves. A model’s Abilities are always considered to be active during an Encounter unless otherwise indicated in their description.

So the sentence “This model’s Actions gain the following trigger:” gets resolved once, not continually, as far as I can tell.  Which means that if you copy that action after the upgrade is attached, you’ll get the trigger.

As a point of timing, if Agent 46 has the Expert Marksman upgrade and uses Mimic to copy some action, his own upgrade would not add a trigger to that action, as far as I understand it.

Edit:  I’m prepared to reconsider the question of “If Agent 46 has Expert Marksman and uses Mimic to get another shooting action, does the upgrade modify the new action?” on the grounds of “Did the designers really want us to keep track of that ordering, or are we just supposed to look at the current cards in play?”  But the upgrade is definitely modifying the model’s card.  So

Upgrade says something changes:  Mimic gets the change.

Ability says something:  That effect doesn’t get applied.

 

[Da Git]

Thanks @solkan. That's my interpretation too.

Also if the upgrade is removed (eg mimicking a an action gaining Onslaught from Formidable Horns), the mimicker losers the trigger or the action if the mimiced model is killed. Is that correct?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've heard people play it both ways. The (unofficial) malifaux world series plays it basically that the tome trigger is effectively added to the card if I recall correctly.

12 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Thanks @solkan. That's my interpretation too.

Also if the upgrade is removed (eg mimicking a an action gaining Onslaught from Formidable Horns), the mimicker losers the trigger or the action if the mimiced model is killed. Is that correct?

I don't think that's the case. Could you spell out why the model dying would remove mimic?

[Da Git]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think that's the case. Could you spell out why the model dying would remove mimic?

Because the mimicked action's stat card has been removed from the game, the action mechanically doesn't exist anymore.

The same as things like Vengeance damage, hazardous aura effects and some triggers (eg the self push and attack from Shove Aside) stop working on the model's death.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

Because the mimicked action's stat card has been removed from the game, the action mechanically doesn't exist anymore.

The same as things like Vengeance damage, hazardous aura effects and some triggers (eg the self push and attack from Shove Aside) stop working on the model's death.

Hmmm... Possibly.

I would see it as being simila rto most 'until the end phase' things (they persist even if the model that gave it died), so I'd see it as a cut and paste onto the other model's card temporarily essentially.