We got an Obey Hamelin! Whoo! Wait, hold on-

[RisingPhoenix]

Hamlin 1 has that ridiculous melee attack too.  Terminal handing out Injured +1 for each Blight Token is obscene since the staff gives one too.  I've Lured, Charge+Staff (Injured 2), staff (Injured 5).   Not very card intensive since all you have to do is hit a 7 vs Wp and a 6 vs Df, no high flips or stones needed, no pre-stacked blight needed, and you have absolutely guaranteed a model will die (12" range).  NOTHING can survive having Injured 5, and 3 blight makes it worse.  They basically have to have condition removal on their next activation or a Rat Catcher can literally beat them to death.  Hell, a Rat Catcher could beat Lady Justice to death in that state.  Even Lure, Lure, Charge+staff adds Injured 3, and Injured 3 is still extraordinarily detrimental to survival. 

That can be a more effective deterrent for getting in melee range than any number of blight auras.  Not that "keep away" is not the name of the game with Hamlin, but Piper-Hamlin does not seem nearly as punishing to engage into.  And for getting the target in range to kill, Obey isn't too much better than lure.  Maybe if you can have them charge their own model or something, but overall I think neo-Hamlin is gonna be pretty risky in some respects.  

[Azahul]

5 hours ago, Jordon said:

@Azahul So what are you thinking in terms of hiring when you think of Hamelin2? Obviously that is mostly based on strat/scheme/opponent but is there a "core" that maybe differs from Hamelin1?

Well, as I mentioned, Nix and the Obedient Wretch play into the Blighted gunline vibe and they're super cheap at just 13 stones. After that you can be pretty flexible. That said, I think our best friendly Obey target in faction is Mad Dog, and once you've hired Mad Dog then the Hodgepodge Emissary becomes tempting as it can keep him out of melee and feed him the scheme markers he needs to gain Fast. The Disease Containment Unit contributes to throwing out Blight at range, so it's a tempting hire as well.

I wouldn't normally hire both Rusty Alyce and Mad Dog, but Rusty puts out Hazardous Terrain and this Hamelin has a lot of triggers to push enemy models around given that he doesn't really have any way to capitalise on those pushes. So that's also a tempting option. I think Mad Dog is generally better (Obeying enemies into a clump and then Obeying Mad Dog to AOE them for example), but Rusty doesn't get as much from the Emissary and frees up list building in that respect.

2 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. Hamelin1's lure can put out three blight in a single action at the same range with the same stat. There is higher variance in the amount of blight, but you can set up to get the high end pretty easily. The bonus action on Hamelin1 can also put out a ton of blight before a final bleeding disease. I guess, there is a higher variance in Hamelin1's blight output than Hamelin2's, but also potential for a higher top end. The explosion of rats on Hamelin1 doesn't allow for you to resist and puts out blight (cheap way to get card draw too). I don't see either Hamelin as needing to cluster up really. 

Hamelin1 has a better defense stat and I like his aura (coughing fit) for defense better than Hamelin2's. Hamelin1 poses a greater threat to masters (lure can target them, obey cannot), whereas Hamelin2 can make opponents scared to bring certain beaters, slow models, or models that can blow up their own with an action. Hamelin2 has better scheming shenanigans. This can influence your opponent's crew selection, but not as drastically as some other titles. 

Generally, Hamelin1 for killing heavy (especially assassinate) and Hamelin2 for more scheme heavy (in my opinion). I do still think that they should have made the titles feel less similar in terms of play. They both still play as control masters while many other titles move masters into completely different categories.  

The thing about Hamelin's Lure giving out Blight at range is that once you've landed a Lure your target is now going to be 6-7" away. Whereas this Hamelin actually can keep enemy models at arm's length while giving them Blight, because an Obey doesn't have to pull enemy models towards you. As for Pustulent Tumours, don't get me wrong, it's absolutely the strongest action on Hamelin1's card and usually you're nearly guaranteed to win any game where you get it off a couple of times, but the range stat on its deceptive because you're normally having to use your bonus action to run rats from behind you up and into position. 

Hamelin1 wants to cluster because he wants Stolen within Demise range and Rat Kings within range of his bonus to make attacks with and rats within range to turn into Rat Kings and once you've factored in terrain you're invariably forced into some relatively tight bubbles. Plus once you've formed a blob and hopefully forced the opponent to fight in a blob then you usually want Nix in your blob so that he'll be constantly healing, cancelling severe damage hits, and pulsing out ever more blight on the enemy models. This Hamelin only cares about the Stolen by contrast, and he can force enemy blobs to happen by just Obeying enemy models across the table together. 

Also, Blight in Hamelin2 scales rather more dramatically than Hamelin1 thanks to Spreading Death and, to a lesser extent, Spray of Filth on Bleeding Disease. I rarely found myself getting off 5+ damage Bleeding Diseases with Hamelin1, usually by the time Blight wracked up to that point it had been via high damage attacks from Rat Kings or Catchers and so the target was dead already since those models typically swing for 4-5 damage each anyway. Conversely in my Hamelin2 games I've hit a 6 damage Bleeding Disease in every game so far (a smaller sample size to be sure, but I don't expect them to be outside the norm). His ability to give every enemy model 2 Blight every time he kills something with a Bleeding Disease means that if he preys on weak models Turns 1-2 then by Turn 3 you're going to be hitting 4-6 damage Bleeding Diseases on whatever is left with largely zero set-up. I agree that Hamelin1 does feel better at killing, Hamelin1's output is hugely boosted by the Terminal trigger and he's usually bringing very high damage models in his crew. Hamelin2 does better at Bleeding Disease specifically however, and is better at setting it up from further away and doing it from relative safety.

[Azahul]

5 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I guess we're supposed to obey stuff in, give it stunned, and then let our crew wail on it to spawn a pile of rats, turn those rats into a king, and go.  Janky.  The blight is always a bit janky.  Overall I think I like the old Hamlin handing out injured with his staff much better.  Oh and it went off easier (TN 8 really?)

OTOH this has Obey.  Stat 7.  Two triggers.  Both of them good.  Dayum.  I can see obeying something to drop a scheme marker, giving it two blight counters, and then blowing it up with bleeding disease.  

Eyes in the Walls is 6" scheme marker removal, but everything about it is a waste of a master action.  Especially at TN 8.  I wish it did something.  

I don't think this Hamelin cares too much about rats to be honest, which is fine. You'll struggle to get a King online when you can't Obey rats to tangle, so they'll come on Mindless and then the next turn when they tangle the King is at minus one AP so it isn't going to get a full activation until the third turn since you started summoning. And with how squishy rats and kings are that's deeply optimistic. But hey, sometimes it'll happen and that's neat.

 

I can't emphasise my bewilderment at Eyes in the Wall needing an 8 enough though, I 100% agree there. A 6" pulse is very large, that's the best rationale I can think of, but to be honest I think I would like the action a lot more if it only needed a 5 or 6 and had a smaller pulse range.

 

To be honest the need for an 8 makes me strongly suspect that at some point in development it had a once/turn trigger to summon a Winged Plague instead of a Rat (an 8 is about right for a Cost 4 summon by most metrics), but that was later cut. Or maybe that's just me still being surprised that they didn't give this Hamelin a way to summon Winged Plagues the way they tried to "fix" nearly every other Cost 4 model in the game.

[Jordon]

I'm trying to get an understanding of the DCU. It's nice to have a model that's a little more straight forward within keyword. However I'm struggling to understand its role. Ranged blight seems like the obvious answer but is that really an issue for either version of Hamelin? 

Having a 5 stat in everything kind of hurts (I know its 6 versus activated models but that still isn't as good as just having a 6). Hidden axe suffers even more by needing blight or conditions in order to receive any respectable damage. Both of these rules combined seem to really hinder this model. Also it seems like the usefulness of dropping a corpse marker is very niche within this keyword (Eyes in the wall I guess?)

The flamethrower is a decent attack given that it blasts on weak. Unresisted blight seems like it's going to find its uses in either version of Hamelin. Probably more importantly is the ability to remove an enemy scheme marker which the Rat kings can sort of already do but is situationally easier for this model.

Rapid Response seems kind of random. Maybe it makes more sense in Guard but the 6" range makes it a bit unwieldily. Needing a 7 of mask to get a rat also seems a bit excessive given how easy rats are to get through other means. Again the heal, while nice, also seems like it's going to be tough to get off.

Am I missing some interesting plays with this model?   

[Azahul]

I would actually argue that ranged Blight is normally quite hard to get in Hamelin. Nearly every source of Blight is a melee attack or a 3" aura. The exceptions are all on Hamelin and, as mentioned, Hamelin1's ranged Blight will basically put the target into melee anyway.

Range 10 Blight with AOEs combos very nicely with Hamelin2, who will usually be Obeying models into clumps. Though to be honest Burning will probably be more effective if the clumps get particularly big, you're only going to be making so many Bleeding Diseases and sometimes free damage without an additional duel from the Burning will just be a more efficient way of chipping away at an opposing crew.

Worth noting that the DCU synergises very well with the Brawler (Stat 5-6 vs a Staggered enemy is usually an easy hit), though it will only be doing Burning in that situation.

I probably wouldn't bother with the DCU in Hamelin1. The issues you mentioned become more pronounced once your gameplan becomes more melee focussed. Having a strangely high TN on its bonus action is annoying, I 100% agree, I'm just not sure what was going on there between this model and Eyes in the Walls.

The Hidden Axe has exactly one merit, which is that you can put an opponent on tilt very quickly by declaring your DCU is attacking with the Snyder Cut.

[touchdown]

Hamelin

Alyce

Montressor

Student of Conflict

Nix

2x Prospector

 

Theoretical max of 8 execute attacks per turn and you're generating the soul stones to get them off. List won't score a lot of points, but neither will your opponent. Also could probably swap Nix for the stalker or whatever your favorite scheme runner is.

[Azahul]

I have begun to develop a bit of a fondness for Alyce with this Hamelin. If an enemy strays too close to her you can use the Piper's Influence to ensure your triggers and get 2 Blight on the target, then Obey them for 2 more Blight and have the model charge her via one of her Pit Traps (2 damage, 2 Injured because of the generated charge action), use a Tome to have Alyce do a damage to them for having charged her (3 damage 2 Injured), then go for two Bleeding Diseases (taking the trigger to Immediately push the target each time, resulting in 5 damage and one Injured per Bleeding Disease).

 

Unlike the Execute plan you only need to stone/card for one trigger in all of that and the rest are guaranteed.

 

Opponents quickly learn to stay the heck away from Alyce and her traps and frankly that's usually good for her.

[HomelessOne]

So would you say Benny has any place with Hamelin2, or does the de-emphasis on the Rat engine leave him strictly a Hamelin1 consideration?

[Azahul]

4 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

So would you say Benny has any place with Hamelin2, or does the de-emphasis on the Rat engine leave him strictly a Hamelin1 consideration?

That's my feeling. He's not a bad hire I think, but I wouldn't engine with him. I'd hire him primarily as a schemer who summons a couple of rats Turn 1 you can use for activation control and/or to capitalise on any incidental rats you get (DCU's bonus, Stolen dying, maybe an Infestation trigger somewhere) and actually get a Rat King on the table.

 

I wouldn't have room for him in most pools but a Fast stone user can sometimes be a useful scoring tool. The rest of the time I don't think he fits too well into Hamelin2's game plan.

[RisingPhoenix]

On 9/29/2021 at 5:20 PM, Jordon said:

I'm trying to get an understanding of the DCU. It's nice to have a model that's a little more straight forward within keyword. However I'm struggling to understand its role. Ranged blight seems like the obvious answer but is that really an issue for either version of Hamelin? 

Having a 5 stat in everything kind of hurts (I know its 6 versus activated models but that still isn't as good as just having a 6). Hidden axe suffers even more by needing blight or conditions in order to receive any respectable damage. Both of these rules combined seem to really hinder this model. Also it seems like the usefulness of dropping a corpse marker is very niche within this keyword (Eyes in the wall I guess?)

The flamethrower is a decent attack given that it blasts on weak. Unresisted blight seems like it's going to find its uses in either version of Hamelin. Probably more importantly is the ability to remove an enemy scheme marker which the Rat kings can sort of already do but is situationally easier for this model.

Rapid Response seems kind of random. Maybe it makes more sense in Guard but the 6" range makes it a bit unwieldily. Needing a 7 of mask to get a rat also seems a bit excessive given how easy rats are to get through other means. Again the heal, while nice, also seems like it's going to be tough to get off.

Am I missing some interesting plays with this model?   

I don't think so?  He's blasts I guess, which wasn't something Hamlin had before.  So, well.  Yay.  Ranged blight is okay, but it also comes with damage, and not much blight.  So I think you'll kill people with the flamethrower before you get their blight to relevant levels.  It's not nothing though, and a nice thing if you need blasts. 

I'm severely underwhelmed, but I'll at least proxy it and try it. 

[Azahul]

The DCU's Bonus is a pretty significant amount of movement on Turn 1, so there's that. I've been playing him in a rough cluster with Mad Dog and one other model (usually someone cheap and unimportant Turn 1, like the Wretch or Effigy). The other model drops a scheme marker for Mad Dog, and the DCU proceeds to give all three models a pretty decent boost up the board for the cost of a bonus action. Plus it gives him a way to avoid ever being engaged, which has been great both for scheming and for shooting. 

 

I still think the TNs on both the bonus and Eyes in the Wall are bizarrely high though.