Shenlong attacks - timing questions

[regleant]

I'm having difficulty understanding the timing / order of operations across the abilities.

FURY OT THE DAWN: Target suffers 2/3/5 damage. If the target is an enemy model, this model gains a chi token. 

• RAM: Aggressive Chi: Discard a Chi Token. When resolving, damage for this Action is irreducible.

 

Given that the RAM trigger is "While resolving", do you receive the Chi token for Fury of the Dawn only after you resolve the RAM trigger, or do you receive the Chi token in order to resolve the RAM trigger? 

 

Also, Fermented River Style:

FALLING RAVE KICK: Discard a Chi Token: Place this model into base contact with the target. Target suffers 3 damage and gains Staggered.  

 

Since there is both a TN and a Df dual, at which point do you Discard the Chi Token, and at which point to you place Shenlong into B2B contact with the target?

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, regleant said:

Given that the RAM trigger is "While resolving", do you receive the Chi token for Fury of the Dawn only after you resolve the RAM trigger, or do you receive the Chi token in order to resolve the RAM trigger? 

The "Discard a Chi Token" in the trigger is its cost.  Per the FAQ:

Quote

If a Trigger has a Cost, is that Cost required to declare the Trigger?

a) No. Costs aren’t required as a function of declaring a Trigger and are paid at the same time as declaring a Trigger. However, should a Cost not be paid, any effects from that Trigger (and those effects produced as a result of declaring the Trigger) are ignored. As such, if a model is required to declare a Trigger, they must declare the Trigger (if able) and then if it has a Cost the Cost must be paid. Otherwise, the Trigger has no effect.

So what happens is the following:

1.  You declare the trigger and decide whether you want to pay the cost or not.  If you pay the cost, it happens immediately.

2.  If you paid the cost, the rest of the effects are applied according to the trigger's timing.

To use Fury of the Dawn as an example, if you declare the Aggressive Chi trigger and discard a chi token (during Duel step 5), then the effect of the trigger will be applied in the results step of the action.

 

For the Falling Rave Kick action, the "Discard a Chi Token" is a cost for the action.  The cost of the action is paid in the second step of action.  The sequence is:

1. Declare the action.
2. Pay any costs.  The cost of Falling Rave Kick is paid here.
3. Declare triggers
4. Perform duels
5. Resolve effects

Edited in followup:

If you were wondering "Does this mean you pay the cost of the action before you know whether you'll win?", the answer to that is "Yes.  For actions, you pay the cost and take your chances."

For triggers, by the time you get to the Declare Triggers step, usually you know whether you're going to succeed or not.  But if the defender has an "Immediately" trigger, they declare that after the attacker declares (and pays for) their trigger, and some of those triggers can cause the action to fail or be redirected.

 

[regleant]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

The "Discard a Chi Token" in the trigger is its cost.  Per the FAQ:

So what happens is the following:

1.  You declare the trigger and decide whether you want to pay the cost or not.  If you pay the cost, it happens immediately.

2.  If you paid the cost, the rest of the effects are applied according to the trigger's timing.

To use Fury of the Dawn as an example, if you declare the Aggressive Chi trigger and discard a chi token (during Duel step 5), then the effect of the trigger will be applied in the results step of the action.

 

Thanks Solkan, but you missed part of my question. When do you "discard a Chi Token" vs. receive one succeeding Fury of the Dawn?

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, regleant said:

 

Thanks Solkan, but you missed part of my question. When do you "discard a Chi Token" vs. receive one succeeding Fury of the Dawn?

The discard is a cost for the trigger, so is paid at the declare trigger section. The chi token is gained after you deal the damage ( you go through the action resolving bits in order).  

[regleant]

Great, thanks guys.

[solkan]

Just a minor clarification, that may sound like splitting a hair but this situation could mislead someone.

The two effects of the action are

4 hours ago, regleant said:

Target suffers 2/3/5 damage.

and

4 hours ago, regleant said:

If the target is an enemy model, this model gains a chi token. 

Those are two effects that are resolved in Step 5 (the results) step of the action, in order.  For that sequence, it doesn’t matter how each of those blocks ends up, whether the damage ends up a 0 or not.

So it’s sequentially after you resolve the damage against the target, not necessarily after you you damage the target.  If the target needs to suffer damage for something to happen, that’s typically written “Models damaged suffer .....” in this edition.