Toss in the mud

[wizuriel]

Just curious has anyone ever gotten use out of this action?

Been trying to use mancha and wrestlers more and find even against condition heavy crews like kaeris I can't seem to ever get use of this action.

 

[Jesy Blue]

How do you not?  It's golden!

I use it on the enemy with Focus, or Distracted in the case if Drunken Kung Fu, on my other stuff especially with Woe crews and all the Stunned they put out; not so much on Tormented due to Montresor preventing Staggered from ending but you do what you can. 

It also wrecks havoc on McMourning.

Where are you finding the hole in its use?

[wizuriel]

11 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

How do you not?  It's golden!

I use it on the enemy with Focus, or Distracted in the case if Drunken Kung Fu, on my other stuff especially with Woe crews and all the Stunned they put out; not so much on Tormented due to Montresor preventing Staggered from ending but you do what you can. 

It also wrecks havoc on McMourning.

Where are you finding the hole in its use?

The 2" range. I just find I can never really get anything in it before it dies (usually from complications from the condition).  

 

Mancha I find what's to be near the action and not support.

Wrestlers don't mind supporting, but I find either want to play up for marker disruption or die to fast if staying back to support.

McTavish might have more luck with his push and range.

[Math Mathonwy]

I have to say that I'm kinda in the same boat as @wizuriel - the range is so low that you'll usually end up using two AP for it (one to get into position, the second to use the Action) and very rarely are Conditions acute enough to sacrifice two AP into removing one. Not to even mention the card needed - especially since there's the Assist Action which works automatically (though it naturally works only on a select few Conditions and is also otherwise inferior).

[Jesy Blue]

Are you not using Free Loot?   Are you not Two Gremlins In A Ghillie Suiting Iron Skeeters and/or Gracie to <blank> With Me?

You're just walking around with him?

[Math Mathonwy]

27 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Are you not using Free Loot?   Are you not Two Gremlins In A Ghillie Suiting Iron Skeeters and/or Gracie to <blank> With Me?

You're just walking around with him?

Sure, Zipp doesn't lack in mobility tricks but there's so many other things to position into (like Scheming, opposing models, avoiding certain opposing model threats, making use of friendly Auras and so on) not to mention the opponent messing with your careful placement. And using Gracie's AP to haul someone to the scene isn't necessarily more efficient unless Gracie really wants to go there anyways.

But maybe you are just better at positioning in a way that makes it more efficient to use Mud Toss and I just need more practice - I mean, I most certainly do need more practice with Zipp crews!

As for Free Loot - do your opponents drop lots of Scheme Markers against a Zipp crew? Because mine sure don't! I mean, there are probably pools where they need to and some crews which drop Schemes in order to function but both of those are sorta rare. (And it's actually a cool effect because denying Scheme Marker Schemes is a powerful thing, mind you)

[Mxbedlam]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Sure, Zipp doesn't lack in mobility tricks but there's so many other things to position into (like Scheming, opposing models, avoiding certain opposing model threats, making use of friendly Auras and so on) not to mention the opponent messing with your careful placement. And using Gracie's AP to haul someone to the scene isn't necessarily more efficient unless Gracie really wants to go there anyways.

But maybe you are just better at positioning in a way that makes it more efficient to use Mud Toss and I just need more practice - I mean, I most certainly do need more practice with Zipp crews!

As for Free Loot - do your opponents drop lots of Scheme Markers against a Zipp crew? Because mine sure don't! I mean, there are probably pools where they need to and some crews which drop Schemes in order to function but both of those are sorta rare. (And it's actually a cool effect because denying Scheme Marker Schemes is a powerful thing, mind you)

I will say that I very rarely get much chance to use Free Loot in an Infamous crew because my opponents are too saavy to take marker schemes, but that is a huge strength in that I can usually pin down what schemes they did take by process of elmination. 

As for Toss in the Mud, its a nice gimme. When you get the chance to use it (Like on a Fire Golem) its golden, but its not something you constantly try to set up

[OracleToronto]

I will echo what has been said that it can be hard to set up. I also find, on an average board, A simple push from Earl and the extra 2" charge range with Mancha is enough to get him where you want. I personally find, most times, the "air bomb Mancha" to be a trap and too often people read about and think it's the full movement of the Skeeters. I find it a lot of stones for a medium ranged place. That being said I do use it when facing other marker heavy or terrain creating crews. 

As for Toss in the Mud - the average way to look at condition removal should always be "what absolutely has to come off right now" if you are facing a condition heavy crew you simply will not keep up trying to remove the majority of it. I watch people try to remove a bunch of my poison off their models when facing my Brewmaster crews - much of which is applied as a secondary effect off of my regular actions, so they are spending actions to limit something i am often getting for "free" I have also tried condition removal heavy lists when facing Kaeris and Sonnia and have found the same thing to be true. There are times when a condition is massively stacked on a model and needs to be removed at all cost (such as when you know Sonia is going to pop the burning on your henchman and turn them into a Witchling Thrall. Then 2 AP from a Wrestler is absolutely worth it. 

Mancha uses Toss in the Mud a little differently, and if wanting to pull this off you will often use the "air drop" method with a Skeeter. You want to place Mancha within 2" and Toss the opponent in the Mud while using a stone to add the mask trigger to add Adversary Infamous, and Injured +2 on the model. This action will strip off any Shielded or Focus off the model as well as add the two conditions dropping their DF and WP by 2 and giving you positive flips to your attacks.  Also if you can stone or flip/cheat a ram on your following attacks the 2 conditions add a +2 damage to your spread. 

 

this means for your next attack (and possible flurry attack) you have positive flips against an opponent at -2 df/wp with a damage spread of 5/6/7

 

 

[OracleToronto]

I find that Can do some work in a Mah Tucket list as that list has a fair amount of pushes that can get them within the 2" but if I am thinking OOK conidtion removal in Bayou I am often going to take the Banjonistas for the additional movement etc. 

 

[Morgan Vening]

I was advocating for a minor boost in the capability of Wrastlers for most of the Beta.

The one suggestion that was used went to Nephilim.  That of the dive-bombing with Fly With Me.

One of the other suggestions was to give Toss In The Mud a  range. That'd have meant that it could be used on a Charge, and to a greater benefit with Rush. It'd also give them a more tar-pitty role when needed, for Disengagement.

And given the only other models with it are Bad Juju, Mancha, McTavish and Bultingin, with Bad Juju already having a 2" melee range, and neither McTavish or Bultingin being above the curve, I stand by that option. Or, you could have just given Wrastlers an ability (This model may use any non-Attack Action when Charging).

I haven't played Zipp much. But when I do, there's just too many better options. Iron Skeeters, for example, are just so much better for the extra 2SS.

[Jesy Blue]

I don't use Wrastlers unless there is a known marker drop crew on the other side of the table (Revenent, Wildfire, Tricksy, Fae, December, Savage, Last Blossom, Frontier, mirror Infamous, etc), so the games I have taken them they have been great. 

If not those crews, I have only taken Roja and he's pretty good otherwise; don't get much use out of marker removal, but condition removal has always been of use.