Candy - does misery movement resolve before on your heels placement?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Had an opponent asking me about this interaction the other day, and I realised I had just assumed it worked one way.

For Candy using

• Glimpse of Insanity (attack action, gives stunned),
• On Your Heels (trigger, Place this model into base contact with the target)
• Misery (after an enemy model gains stunned, Candy may move them 2")
• And assuming the model is in Misery range before all this starts.

Does the misery movement happen before or after the On Your Heels trigger?

Argument for On Your Heels happening first:

• Fully resolve the ability (gives stunned + triggers) in the order on the card.
• You resolve stunned
• Resolve the after succeeding trigger in step 6
• Resolve the misery movement in step 6

Argument for misery movement happening first:

• Start resolving the ability (gives stunned) in step 5 of action timing.
• This generates a misery effect (the model was stunned), but it has to wait until step 6 (as an 'after' effect)
• Step six needs to resolve the misery effect and the on your heels effect.
• Misery was generated first, so resolves first.
• Then On Your Heels resolves.

I had initially assumed that On Your Heels resolves before the Misery movement, but my opponent thought I was incorrect. Actually working through the steps now, it seems to me like the misery effect actually should be generated and resolved first? So you can gain extra distance from On Your Heels (as long as they are initially in a Misery Aura)?

What do people think?

EDIT: I suppose there's a third argument of simultaneous effects as well! I don't think it is that one, though, as they are generated at different times.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT: I suppose there's a third argument of simultaneous effects as well! I don't think it is that one, though, as they are generated at different times.

For Simultaneous Effects, it doesn't matter whether all of the effects were "generated" at the same time, it matters that they're all supposed to be resolved at the same time.

That's why stuff like the End Phase just says "Resolve Effects: All effects that resolve during the End Phase resolve now. If there are multiple effects, follow the timing rules on page 34." as an oblique reference to Sequential Effects.

In other words, when you get to Step 6, you use Simultaneous Effects to sort out all of the Step 6 effects.

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, solkan said:

For Simultaneous Effects, it doesn't matter whether all of the effects were "generated" at the same time, it matters that they're all supposed to be resolved at the same time.

That's why stuff like the End Phase just says "Resolve Effects: All effects that resolve during the End Phase resolve now. If there are multiple effects, follow the timing rules on page 34." as an oblique reference to Sequential Effects.

 

Was that a typo and you mean that the the end phase refers to simultaneous effects (as they all occur at the same time)? 

Sequential effects states:

Quote

Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves. In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved.

I take that as: if one effect generates another (the stunned effect generates a misery effect), then you need to apply sequential timing for it.

But we clearly have different takes on sequential timing from other posts. Could you give me an example of where the sequential timing rules are relevant in your mind? Or do you not draw a distinction between sequential and simultaneous?

EDIT: To clarify my own current assumptions... I use simultaneous effects for when multiple things happen at the same time with no indication of which one might happen first (for instance, the end phase, when there's a bunch of end phase things happening and no clear indicator as to what was generated first). I use sequential effects when there is a clear indicator as to what was generated first (misery is generated by the stun part of the action specifically, so there is an indication as to timing). Although in this case, of course, even with some clear indicators, you can still argue order a bit!

[santaclaws01]

Since misery doesn't tell you to wait until after resolving an action, it resolves as soon as it can. In this case we would look at sequential effects and resolve it immediately after resolving the main text of the action, but before moving onto the next step.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Since misery doesn't tell you to wait until after resolving an action, it resolves as soon as it can. In this case we would look at sequential effects and resolve it immediately after resolving the main text of the action, but before moving onto the next step.

Ah, so you'd resolve Misery in step five?

I hadn't considered that, but that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!