Ramos explosions and inventions

[Caver Ramos]

Hi, yesterday I was playing a game with Ramos and some doubts spread into my mind regarding the invention upgrade.

 

First and foremost if I summon a model and then that models get killed. Does that mean that now I lose an upgrade card and can only summon 4 more models? Or can I still summon up to 5?

 

Second, does the stunned given by the upgrade get lost after the first turn it activates?

 

Third how does the swarm together rule interact with the invention upgrade? Does the arachnid swarm out together also get stunned?

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Caver Ramos said:

First and foremost if I summon a model and then that models get killed. Does that mean that now I lose an upgrade card and can only summon 4 more models? Or can I still summon up to 5?

The Plentiful limitation limits to having five copies of the upgrade in play.  Upgrades on killed models are removed from play, so don't count against that.

So you can still summon up to five.

1 hour ago, Caver Ramos said:

Second, does the stunned given by the upgrade get lost after the first turn it activates?

"After Attaching this upgrade, this model gains Stunned."  You only attach the upgrade once to that model, that sets off the "After attaching" effect once for that model.

1 hour ago, Caver Ramos said:

Third how does the swarm together rule interact with the invention upgrade? Does the arachnid swarm out together also get stunned?

In a multi-model replace, you end up choosing one of the models and transferring over its Summoning Upgrade (if it has one).  As far as I can tell, that means that the Arachnid Swarm will get Stunned when it attaches the upgrade (unless you've got a non-summoned one in the group you can choose to use).  (If that's not intended, the rules would need to be FAQ'd or errata'd to not set off the "After Attaching" effects.)

 

[MuMantai]

13 hours ago, solkan said:

In a multi-model replace, you end up choosing one of the models and transferring over its Summoning Upgrade (if it has one).  As far as I can tell, that means that the Arachnid Swarm will get Stunned when it attaches the upgrade (unless you've got a non-summoned one in the group you can choose to use).  (If that's not intended, the rules would need to be FAQ'd or errata'd to not set off the "After Attaching" effects.)

This is not the case. For step 3 of the replacement process, only conditions are called out for replacing multiple models.

According to the rules, the new model gains all summon upgrades present on the replaced models, but because a model can only have on upgrade of each type, it keeps one of them and discards the rest. So even if only one of the arachnids used to make a swarm is summoned, the swarm will have the upgrade and will therefore get stunned.

[solkan]

6 hours ago, MuMantai said:

This is not the case. For step 3 of the replacement process, only conditions are called out for replacing multiple models.

According to the rules, the new model gains all summon upgrades present on the replaced models, but because a model can only have on upgrade of each type, it keeps one of them and discards the rest. So even if only one of the arachnids used to make a swarm is summoned, the swarm will have the upgrade and will therefore get stunned.

Ah, no.  Now that you've pointed it out to me, I would like to point out to you that it doesn't actually say what happens to the summoning upgrades.  The rules don't say what either of us claimed they do.

Because there's no text in the rules that says "Attach all of the summoning upgrades on the replaced models to the new model."  

[Adran]

23 minutes ago, solkan said:

Ah, no.  Now that you've pointed it out to me, I would like to point out to you that it doesn't actually say what happens to the summoning upgrades.  The rules don't say what either of us claimed they do.

Because there's no text in the rules that says "Attach all of the summoning upgrades on the replaced models to the new model."  

Well it sort of does. It tells us to attach the summoning upgrade of the original model. And then it tells us how that step is altered if its a multiple replace. And the step was move all conditions, tokens and summoning upgrades from the original model to the new model, the alteration tells us that it moves the highest value condition when the conditions share a name. Since it doesn't mention tokens or summoning upgrades they will all go over from the original models to the new model as per the standard step 3 . 

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Well it sort of does. It tells us to attach the summoning upgrade of the original model. And then it tells us how that step is altered if its a multiple replace. And the step was move all conditions, tokens and summoning upgrades from the original model to the new model, the alteration tells us that it moves the highest value condition when the conditions share a name. Since it doesn't mention tokens or summoning upgrades they will all go over from the original models to the new model as per the standard step 3 . 

Well, no, it sort of doesn't.  And pointing out the thing about Tokens just makes the oversight bigger.

The step is to move all conditions, tokens, and summoning upgrades from the original model (singular) to the new model.  None of the (current) alterations say to do the same thing for all of the original models.

That paragraph used to say (in a previous version) to choose a single model for that particular step, and that's the version that stuck in my head, unfortunately.  But that sentence got removed and was replaced by the sentence that describes what to do with the Conditions.

Step 3 says "original model" (singular).  That isn't instructions for what to do with plural models.