Where are abilitys?

[izikial]

So i asked a similer question and prompted an argument just wondering if we have an official answere on this. Where is an ability considerd to be for abilitys that referance othere modles.

wording examples. Copy an ability printed on a non master modles card or upgrade

So part one. an upgrade such as a fix upgrade that gives othere modles and action (monk of low river) dose the monk of low river have the action to copy or as it says printed on dose this mean it is actualy on the upgrade that a henchman has

Second. A non master giving a master an action such as emissary upgrades. Can you coppy it from the master as the upgrade originates from of the emissary. Do you copy it from the emessary who has it printed on one of his cards although he dosnt have the action him self

when insted of printed it says that target modles may preform that is fairly clear. The monk can preform it not the modle with the upgrade and the master can preform it not the emissary.

Please help

[Tris]

Are we talking about abilities or actions now?

Also, I'm not exactly sure what you want to know, sorry....

[izikial]

Sry actions. So prime example. Doppleganger wants to use a monk of low rivers new heal. Dose she coppy it from the monk or from the modle holding the new 0 upgrade.

Second one the doppelganger cant copy from leaders. So with lucius and his new attack from the emissary can the doppelganger copy it from the emissary cus its on his upgrade and thats nonleader. Or he cant as lucius gains the action meaning the emissary never had it

[Ludvig]

18 minutes ago, izikial said:

Sry actions. So prime example. Doppleganger wants to use a monk of low rivers new heal. Dose she coppy it from the monk or from the modle holding the new 0 upgrade.

Second one the doppelganger cant copy from leaders. So with lucius and his new attack from the emissary can the doppelganger copy it from the emissary cus its on his upgrade and thats nonleader. Or he cant as lucius gains the action meaning the emissary never had it

The action is printed on an upgrade that is on a non-master model so the doppleganger can copy it if you ask me. I know some people don't agree with this but this far no one has been able to argue their stance in a way that made me change my mind. 

The monk does not have the action printed even if it can take it so the dopple needs to be close to the upgrade carrier, not the monk.

I take it you are only referring to the doppleganger? Or are there other abilities involved here, because in that case we will need to have a look at each wording individually.

[izikial]

Im mainly focused on the doppel. Also there are things like the changleing who dont care about the leader critiria. But are worded i belive the same why.

I dont personaly know of any but if an upgrade said take an action that x model can take then you could copy the monks ability from the monk as it dosnt state printed on card. Just can take. Is how i see it

Thanks ludvig i know its not official but you see it how i see it

[Flib Jib]

Good question, for the most part this is resolved by the common predicate, "...that does not list a model by name." So regardless of where the action 'is' most if not all copy-like actions have this stipulation. Off the top of my head I cannot think of a copy-like action that allows you to copy a model's action that has a listed name.

[Ludvig]

Changelings have a differwnt wording from the dopplel. Can't remember it by heart but have a look.

[Flib Jib]

33 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Changelings have a differwnt wording from the dopplel. Can't remember it by heart but have a look.

 

As it turns out both have the "which does not list a model by name" stipulation.

 

So I think the major differences are:

Doppleganger- Action, non-leader, Rg:8", Needs a 7, Any (1) Action, with a trigger can have 3X actions/4 with fast

Changeling- Ability, any model, 3", Automatically happens, Only Attack actions, only 2 actions/3 with fast

 

Other small points, since Doppleganger's mimic is a (0) she is at risk of BJ flips. Also, if she she is locked into a single action opposed to the changeling which can spend its AP on different actions from the same, or different models.

(0) Mimic (Ca 8 / TN: 15 / Rg: 8): Select a (1) Action printed on target non-Leader model's stat card or Upgrades that does not list a model by name. For the remainder of this Activation, this model may take the selected Action as if it were printed on this model's card. Actions taken in this way may not declare Triggers. Mt Perfect Blend: After succeeding, immediately take the selected Action.

Copycat: This model may take (1) Attack Actions printed on any model or Upgrade within 3 which does not list a model by name. These Actions may not declare Triggers and the stat (Ml, Sh, Ca, etc.) is considered to be 4 (no suits).

[izikial]

So both also state printed so in both examples would need to be next to the modle holding the upgrade not the modle benifiting from it

[Adran]

I would argue that the model holding the peaceful waters upgrade does not have an action " the peaceful waters" to copy. The upgrade does not give it the action but rather it gives it to the monks. 

I can also see that he Monk does not have "the peaceful waters" as an action printed on its card or on an upgrade attached to it. The upgrade is worded

Friendly Monks of Low River within 12 gain the following Tactical Action:
(1) The Peaceful Waters (Ca 5 / TN: 12 / Rg: 6): 

So The doppleganger can not copy this action ever (unless you have manged to give the upgrade to a monk of the low river by some shenanigans, such as playing a campaign, or some sort of trick with the Terracotta Warrior) as its requirements are not met. 

Just because the text of the action is on the upgrade held by model A, it does not mean that Model A has that action. And The doppleganer can only copy an action, not just selected text from another card. 

[Ludvig]

@Adran None ofthe abilities ask you to determine which model can take the action. They just concern themselves with which card the action is printed on.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Adran None ofthe abilities ask you to determine which model can take the action. They just concern themselves with which card the action is printed on.

My Arguement is that it isn't an action whilst just on the upgrade. Its a bunch of text that happens to include the rules to allow something to take an action. Its like if you were able to copy abilities or conditions, you couldn't copy Re-activate from Brass arcahnid, because it doesn't have re-activate, just the text to explain how it can give something re-activate.

 

[Ludvig]

27 minutes ago, Adran said:

My Arguement is that it isn't an action whilst just on the upgrade. Its a bunch of text that happens to include the rules to allow something to take an action. Its like if you were able to copy abilities or conditions, you couldn't copy Re-activate from Brass arcahnid, because it doesn't have re-activate, just the text to explain how it can give something re-activate.

 

I see what you are saying but I disagree. One of these days we might actually see an faq-ruling on this