How many pigs?

[Steinwand]

How many piglets and war pigs do people tend to use with Ulix? Also, are war pigs worth hiring or is it better summoned?

[maca1066]

just moved to gremlins and i am focusing on wong and ulix. 

I have 9 piglets and 3 war pigs (only really wanted 2 but bought a war rabbit). war pigs are not cheap enough to hire unless you are going for one pig against the world, flying from a taxidermist and shot in the rear from the hunting bow.

just my 2 cents with the caveat that i am new to the faction. 

[Four_N_Six]

I've never hired a War Pig (Rabbit), and I heard a lot of complaints that one of our fixer upgrades was for that model, since not many people would hire it to bother with the upgrade.  I'm not amazing with Ulix, so I've never had more than one on the table at a time from summoning.  That's probably also due to my primary opponent playing Outcasts this year, so it always gets shot to death before it can do anything.  Not 100% clear on that bit.

As for piglets, I typically get between 3 and 6 on the board, usually on the lower end.  My thing was always getting my 3 out to help get the markers to summon the War Pig and then move onto other things.  This is also why I tend to have Sammy summoning for Ulix.  1 less piglet a turn, but Ulix especially has better things to do with his AP than just summoning.  I believe I'm in the minority on that, but having Sammy summon, maybe give the saddle to Old Major to drag her ass around, it allows her to be where she needs to for summoning, while also moving up the board with the crew.  Then you have her always amazing Jynx ability for when it may become useful.  Plus her (0) to summon some stuffed piglets as well, if your opponent has markers on the table.

[Swinerider]

I've only managed to get 3 war pigs on the board at once. I always summon them/ never hire. Then I just treat them like cannon balls. After all of the free movement with hog whisperers, major, and Penelope, they are generally in easy charge range for their 1 action. If they live till the next round, great. If not, no problem, another is coming down the pipeline. 

Piglets I generally start with 2 so they can drop the scheme markers I need for WarP. I've got 4 total but would t mind 6. 

Dont overlook the joys of stuffed piglets as well!

[codingCaptor]

I own 6 piglet models and 3 War pigs.    I ran with just 2 war pigs for a long time and didn't run into any problems, but I bought the 3rd Because I REALLY like the war rabbit model so now I can field 2 war rabbits.    I've had to proxy some piglets in the past, because I got a little too summon happy.   I don't think you'll need more than 6 piglet models over the course of normal play.  I go out of my way to not play normally

War pigs are an interesting conundrum.   At 12 wounds with the ability to heal to full if they kill something, and a healing trigger on their main attack, they have potential to be amazing tanks.    Offensively, they're also petty amazing, capable of up to 6 attacks in a round.  With their upgrade, or Old Major support, those attacks can have plus flips to attack and damage.   Their main weakness is their 2/4/6 damage spread.  War pigs really work best when they can kill a target, both to trigger healing and break engagement so you can point them at somewhere useful.  And with 2 min damage they're going to have a hard time eating through any kind of tanky unit, which will just tie them down and make them easy pickings for the enemy.   Their Stampede trigger on a ram can be used to get them out of such situations, but since it stipulates "Closest" Model, oftentimes it'll just take you from a bad position to a worse position.   In cases where they can get that straight (or a plus flip) on damage and hit for moderate, they're going to shine.   In cases where they can't, they're going to under-perform, especially for their cost.

In general, you're best to summon them over hiring them.  Which isn't to say hiring one isn't a bad idea... Ulix can summon a whole litter of piglets off of them only for the war pig to run off and kill something healing to full.   And their upgrade is really nice for a turn when you need to ensure that they perform as advertised (Or make up for a bad hand draw)   But a 9 point model in exchange for an unsuited 12 isn't a bad deal.   But keep in mind EXACTLY what your costs are.    Running Corn Husks and 3 piglets will allow you to get a war pig on turn one (assuming you get the 12+, a 65% chance, 75% if you stone)   Which is 12 points of model, and 5 points of upgrades, 4 wounds on your master, and a master AP in exchange for a 9 point model.   Now, ideally those 12 points of model and 5 points of upgrades are going to be worth something over the course of the rest of the game.   But that's a big investment.   If you don't run corn husks, or run less piglets, or heaven forbid have other models dropping scheme markers, now you're exchanging unit AP for your 9 point model.    And while most turn ones are boring affairs of "I move all my units up into position"  You still need to be getting your pigs set up and their charge lanes ready, because you'll need them to get in there turn 2 and start eating your foes.   You can't dwadle in your deployment zone summoning pigs all day.   (it's at this point I highly recommend a Taxidermist, as they can grant pigs flying.   This greatly hinders your opponents ability to block charge lanes by summoning terrain, or throwing weak units in between you and more juicy targets.   Also more suitless pig summoning more better.)

This isn't to say war pigs are weak.  Ulix ability to summon them is part of what makes him work really well.  But they're far from fire and forget, and learning when to summon them, where to throw them, and how to position them is the largest hurdle in figuring out how to use Ulix effectively.

(I've actually found hired war pigs to be hilariously effective in a Somer list, where somer can just throw out Crows to them.  Everytime they hit, that's a 1/2/3 healing flip which makes them incredibly durable.   Being able to bigger hat your opponent and then relying on you innate + flips from one pig against the world or Old Major works wonders.  But for Ulix, summoning is still the better choice.)

[Steinwand]

What on earth is a war rabbit and why do you need war pig for it? Also, what about using the Sow vs. using Gracie? Is one considered better than the other or do they have thier time and place?

[maca1066]

2 hours ago, Steinwand said:

What on earth is a war rabbit and why do you need war pig for it? Also, what about using the Sow vs. using Gracie? Is one considered better than the other or do they have thier time and place?

war rabbit was the Easter special (its a war pig for all intents and purposes). I like the Sow as my summoning pig but her ml5 kills me. 

[PositronMike]

As an alternative view on Ulix I don't bother with war pigs at all. I concentrate on the other big pigs and piglets. I find war pig summoning to be too much of an investment and I can distract from completing the schemes and strategies. I also don't tend to take slop haulers with Ulix so the 4 wds to summon a war pig hurts a lot.

Typically I take 3 50mm based pigs in the list and summon one piglet off each for the first to turns. Doing this combined with Ulixs zero action means you can end up with 6 piglets out and all the pigs unwounded.

Ulix then switches to prodding the big pigs or using shot in the rear and sooey to yoyo a big pig in and out of combat.

[Steinwand]

@PositronMike Do you ever hire War Pigs, or do you just stick with Major, Sow, and Gracie? And if you don't hire them, why not?

[PositronMike]

29 minutes ago, Steinwand said:

@PositronMike Do you ever hire War Pigs, or do you just stick with Major, Sow, and Gracie? And if you don't hire them, why not?

I just stick with the Sow, major and Gracie. Typically they stay close together turn 1 and then start to spread out on turn 2. Ulix stays with old major and prods him for attacks.

I always found war pigs too unreliable however with the new upgrade and I going to try one instead of the Sow in my Ulix list.

 

[Four_N_Six]

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 1:06 PM, PositronMike said:

As an alternative view on Ulix I don't bother with war pigs at all. I concentrate on the other big pigs and piglets. I find war pig summoning to be too much of an investment and I can distract from completing the schemes and strategies. I also don't tend to take slop haulers with Ulix so the 4 wds to summon a war pig hurts a lot.

Typically I take 3 50mm based pigs in the list and summon one piglet off each for the first to turns. Doing this combined with Ulixs zero action means you can end up with 6 piglets out and all the pigs unwounded.

Ulix then switches to prodding the big pigs or using shot in the rear and sooey to yoyo a big pig in and out of combat.

This is how I was for a while, but when the excuse to get the rabbit came up I had to go for it.  I agree about the investment, unfortunately.  Maybe if it's a scheme heavy pool and I can have Merris in the crew to get the job done early it'll be worth it.

Never tried Sow and Gracie, typically just one or the other.  I prefer Gracie, as her damage is more consistent (especially if Old Major gives her the ram she needs for the turn) compared to the Sow.  Once that thing starts taking damage (which, against a smart opponent, will be right away), it really falls off in usefulness.

[PositronMike]

One of the reasons I take both the sow and Gracie us that for me they perform 2 different roles. Gracie tends to be used either a solo flanker who can take on pretty much whatever I need her to or as a duo with Lenny which will head towards the key piece in my opponents crew and take it out.

The sow is more of a distraction piece ir guided missile. She is usually the shot in the rear target and if positioned correct can pinball through lots of the opposing crews smaller models.

 

[Dogmantra]

Is it really that big of an investment to summon a War Pig? One piglet + Merris (or anything with Reckless) drop all the scheme markers turn 1, and the Piglet doesn't even need to spend any AP with Corn Husks which imo is an auto-take.

Then once you've got one War Pig you're already up 6 stones from paying for Husbandry and you don't really need to care about summoning more unless the opportunity comes up.

[PositronMike]

The issue is that to do it turn one you have hired Merris and a piglet plus something to heal Ulix. That means you you have now spent more to enable the summoning than the cost of the warpig.

If you can get it to work that is great however it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Izzinatah]

Or use Merris, a Slop Hauler and Old Cranky. You spend SS on those to 'enable the summoning', but then you get an extra War Pig on Turn 1 as well as a good Totem, a Slop Hauler and an excellent Scheme Runner. I don't really see an issue  

[PositronMike]

7 hours ago, Izzinatah said:

Or use Merris, a Slop Hauler and Old Cranky. You spend SS on those to 'enable the summoning', but then you get an extra War Pig on Turn 1 as well as a good Totem, a Slop Hauler and an excellent Scheme Runner. I don't really see an issue  

It might change now that GG17 is out but for previous schemes I never needed to hire scheme runners with Ulix as that is what the summoned piglets were for. So hiring Merris was never that high priority.

I really like Old Cranky with some masters but Ulix isn't one of them as Penelope just brings so much extra movement to the crew I can't justify dropping her. Between Penelope and Old Major Gracie can have a 25" threat range turn one which can be very scary for the enemy.

As I have said before it is just a different play style, I don't value the warpig summoning as much as others. I think it us a bit like the grow lists in Neverborn, some people really like them whilst others think it is too much effort for the reward.